'The Abrams Report' for June 19
Read the transcript to the Monday show
Updated: 11:05 a.m. ET June 20, 2006
Guests: Georgia Goslee, Ed West, Yale Galanter, Rick Francona, Maureen Seaberg, Sarena Straus, Allison Gilman, Joe Bodiford
SUSAN FILAN, GUEST HOST: Coming up, we get an exclusive look at all the evidence the prosecution has given the defense in the Duke lacrosse rape case and if this is all they‘ve got, things don‘t look good for the D.A.
The program about justice starts now.
Hi everyone. I‘m Susan Filan. First up on the docket, an MSNBC exclusive. The media‘s first ever look at the almost 1,300 pages of evidence Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong turned over to the defense in the Duke lacrosse rape investigation.
Bits and pieces have been released in defense motions, but our own Dan Abrams is the first to get a look at all of it. Dan thanks for joining us.
DAN ABRAMS, MSNBC GENERAL MANAGER: Well, Susan, it‘s good to be back on the program. I‘ve got to say, we hear so many times on this program again and again, we talk about this case, well, we don‘t know everything...
FILAN: Right.
ABRAMS: ... well, we haven‘t seen all the discovery. Well now I‘ve seen them all. It‘s all numbered. Every page is numbered of the discovery. I‘ve seen it all now everything that the D.A. handed over to the defense team, and this case is even weaker than I originally thought.
FILAN: Really?
ABRAMS: I mean, look, I was–I had come out on this program and said that I didn‘t think that–I thought it was time for the D.A. to drop the charges, after seeing the accuser‘s statement, after seeing the sexual assault nurse‘s statement, after seeing the statement of Dave Evans and the other captains who gave statements early on, after seeing dates for when documents were subpoenaed, all the medical reports, everything else, I don‘t understand how Mike Nifong brought this case. I really don‘t understand it. And I‘ll tell you and I mean this seriously, because you look at the accuser‘s statement and you‘ve got the quotes there...
FILAN: Right.
ABRAMS: ... it is constantly contradicted by the other evidence and even the accuser‘s statement itself is entirely contradicted by the sexual assault nurse‘s report.
FILAN: Well that‘s the thing. You‘ve always said to me what do you want to see, if you could see if for yourself, what would you want to see? I would want to see the accuser‘s statement. I‘d want to see the nurse‘s report. You‘ve seen both. Let‘s take a look.
The accuser‘s statement to the police–the boys hit and kicked me. Matt grabbed me and looked and me and said sweetheart you can‘t leave. He grabbed the back of my neck and said I‘m going to kill you (BLANK) (BLANK) if you don‘t shut up. They started kicking me in my behind and my back. Matt hit me in the face while Dan and Brett kicked me.
But then what she says to the Duke Medical University Center, to the doctor...
ABRAMS: March 14, the day after the incident.
FILAN: That‘s right. The doctor who examines her, 27-year-old female alleged assault by three men, denies other physical assault, no evidence of other physical assault–Dan.
ABRAMS: And also, I mean that‘s not the only contradiction. I mean depending on which story she‘s telling, depending on which time she‘s telling the story, it changes, meaning she went to the UNC Medical Center and there‘s a report about that from March the 15th, and the doctor there says she reports hitting her head on the sink and that that‘s how she may have had certain injuries.
It really–and then again, the sexual assault nurse has yet a different story about what she says, but most significant to me is the fact that you read the sexual assault nurse‘s statement, right, and we‘ve talked about the fact that the sexual assault nurse found some swelling there, not necessarily tearing or anything, we knew about that. What we didn‘t know, at least I didn‘t know, is that the sexual assault nurse basically says that the accuser tells her that it‘s all basically the fault of the second stripper.
I mean in the sexual assault nurse‘s report, it says that the second stripper helped carry her into the–back into the house as she‘s screaming no, no, no, that after it happens, according to the sexual assault nurse, she‘s making–she takes all of her money, that the second stripper steals her money, she helps her–helps them bring her into the house, steals her money. That‘s directly contradicting what she said in her statement where she talks about oh, we were trying to hold on to each other and we were separated. I mean...
FILAN: And that‘s what she told the police.
ABRAMS: That‘s in the written statement she gave to the police, is her saying that they were basically trying to–she and the second stripper were holding on to each other and they got separated. To the sexual assault nurse, she‘s saying basically it‘s all the second stripper‘s fault. She carries me into the house and then steals my money.
FILAN: But you know, Dan, sometimes in sexual assault cases, we‘ve talked about this before, it‘s so traumatic, you can‘t remember everything, it doesn‘t sound like you‘re saying memory loss. It sounds like you‘re saying liar.
ABRAMS: Look, I‘m not willing to go that far. I‘m not willing to say she‘s lying. What I am willing to say is that there are so many contradictions in her story that this D.A. never should have brought this case. And it is just from looking–I mean you can tell that just from looking at the sexual assault exam report and remember, her statement to the police, the written statement I read, that‘s from weeks later.
FILAN: Right.
ABRAMS: That‘s from the beginning of April. You know, this is a case in serious, serious trouble. And I think the D.A. owes it to the public, he owes it to the players, he owes it to everybody, to come out and explain what it is that he has beyond what he turned over to the defense. Now on Thursday, they‘re going to turn over more evidence...
FILAN: Right.
ABRAMS: ... the prosecutors, to the defense team. Maybe they‘ve got something new.
FILAN: Well you‘ve asked me, what else could they have?
ABRAMS: What else could they have? You know, maybe some other–one of the players came forward and–but the bottom line is, that these statements, the statements she gave to the authorities, compared to the other statements that she gave to doctors and the nurse and to–and the statement given by the second stripper, they‘re all inconsistent.
FILAN: Let‘s take a look at what she did tell the police about her and the second stripper. Three guys grabbed Nikki and Brett, Adam and Matt grabbed me. They separated us at the master bedroom door while we tried to hold on to each other. Brett, Adam and Matt took me into the bathroom.
Now let‘s also take a look at what she says–what the second dancer told the police. Kim, who‘s also Nikki...
ABRAMS: Yes.
FILAN: ... stated to Investigator Himan, she was with the accuser the whole time she was there except for a period of less than five minutes.
ABRAMS: And more importantly, I mean even when she–when Kim gives her written statement, the second stripper gives her written statement, she‘s not talking about–she doesn‘t corroborate any of what she said either...
FILAN: Right.
ABRAMS: ... to the sexual assault nurse or what she said in her statement. I mean this directly contradicts not just the second stripper, it also contradicts much of the other evidence that we‘ve learned about in this case, and this is–I was really–after seeing this, I was really disturbed. I mean because we keep coming out and my opinion has been up to this point, you know, look, the D.A. should come out, he should explain himself and rightly so.
You, in particularly Georgia and other guests on this show have said look, we don‘t know...
FILAN: Right.
ABRAMS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We don‘t know if the defense is leaking things selectively. Well now we do know.
FILAN: Yes...
ABRAMS: We do know what they had at least at the time that these guys were indicted and it ain‘t much.
FILAN: Well, he said he‘s not going to come out and speak to the public, if you want to know what he‘s got, show up in court and attend the trial.
ABRAMS: Yes. Well, OK, that‘s nice and that‘s a nice sort of like you know rah-rah, sort of you know arrogant thing to say, but the bottom line is, that considering what has been turned over, I will be surprised if this case makes it to trial.
FILAN: Let‘s bring in our panel now. Joining us now, criminal defense attorney Yale Galanter, North Carolina defense attorney Ed West, and former federal prosecutor Georgia Goslee. Georgia, let me start with you.
You haven‘t seen it all. Dan has. You heard him. He‘s looked at her statement; it‘s very different from what she told the nurse. It‘s very different from what Kim Roberts told police. How can you still defend this prosecution?
GEORGIA GOSLEE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: First of all, there is a fallacy in Dan‘s argument. First he says...
FILAN: He‘s not arguing. He‘s reporting.
GOSLEE: He–no, he‘s arguing. Believe me, he‘s setting forth a particular viewpoint and I would like to counter that viewpoint by saying first of all, there‘s a fallacy in Dan‘s argument, because he says if he won‘t go so far to say that she‘s a liar and that there are contradictory statements, unless Dan can show me some credentials or you Susan, that you‘re a trauma nurse or an expert, I said let it go to the trial and let them decide...
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: You know what. That‘s a fair point. What I probably should–what I do, do well, Georgia, is read. I mean that‘s one thing I really can do pretty well is read, and that‘s all I did, is I read.
GOSLEE: That‘s fine.
ABRAMS: I read the sexual assault nurse‘s report.
GOSLEE: OK.
ABRAMS: I read her statement. I‘ve read the second stripper‘s statement. I‘ve read all the medical reports. I‘m not an expert, but I am a good reader, and I comprehend pretty well what I read.
GOSLEE: I‘m sure you‘re a bright guy, Dan...
ABRAMS: Yes.
GOSLEE: ... but here‘s the problem. You are not the trier of fact, you‘re not the judge and you‘re not the jury.
ABRAMS: That I‘m not. That I‘m not.
GOSLEE: And you cannot simply...
FILAN: Georgia, he doesn‘t need to be a juror. He looked at it for himself and what he‘s telling you, if he was a jury, this is a big N.G., not guilty. What I‘m asking you...
GOSLEE: Well you know what, Susan...
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: Georgia, hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: Instead of saying let it go to the jury, I‘m asking you...
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: ... how can this prosecutor go forward?
GOSLEE: I‘ll tell you why, because unless you tell me some reason other than what you believe or your judgment, you can‘t simply say, I don‘t like the way this is going, and so I think we should abort it. That‘s not the way our...
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: But, when you were a prosecutor...
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: ... if your judgment was you didn‘t have a case...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I can interrupt, there‘s a larger point here.
FILAN: ... did you go forward anyway, just because you were the rodeo cowgirl...
(CROSSTALK)
GOSLEE: I‘m not the prosecutor. Nifong‘s judgment says he has something, that‘s the only reason he‘s going forward. His judgment. He‘s the prosecutor.
FILAN: Ed West, you‘re the local guy. What‘s going on down there?
ED WEST, NC DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, here‘s–the problem is and Georgia is talking about this is he may go forward with it, but it‘s because he‘s dug himself in so much, and he‘s afraid to do anything else, but I think one of the questions that ought to be asked here is, is there a way that Mike Nifong can get out of this short of going to trial and save face.
FILAN: Yale.
WEST: And I think that that‘s one of the things that‘s going to be really tough and the only thing that I can come up with that I could think of is that perhaps if somehow the accuser in this case says I just don‘t want to go forward, and then he can come to the public and he can say listen, I‘ve talked to the accuser and I just don‘t want to put her through this, that will maybe allow him save some face.
GOSLEE: Yes, but he‘s not trying to save face. That‘s your judgment. Again, if he was trying to save face, he has–he has ample evidence, he has an inclination to go forward.
YALE GALANTER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Georgia, Georgia, he‘s got no evidence and that‘s the problem here.
GOSLEE: Well then guess what?
GALANTER: He‘s got a complaining witness...
GOSLEE: Why is he prosecuting a case if he has no evidence?
GALANTER: ... who has told two different stories.
FILAN: More than two.
GALANTER: It occurred. It didn‘t occur. You know she kept flip-flopping.
None of the evidence is consistent...
GOSLEE: Yale...
GALANTER: ... with a forcible rape occurring.
GOSLEE: ... she could have told 100 stories.
GALANTER: And Georgia, the problem here...
GOSLEE: It‘s up to the jury to determine what they‘re going to believe...
GALANTER: Georgia, the problem here...
GOSLEE: ... and what they‘re not going to believe.
GALANTER: ... is that Dan and I have been telling you for weeks that the defense has not been spinning a story, has not been putting little snippets out.
GOSLEE: I‘ll never buy it, Yale.
FILAN: Georgia, hold on. Hold on.
GALANTER: Now Dan has looked at all–listen, Dan has looked at all the records. He‘s read every word of every page and all 1,300. The most important documents, the medical records and the complaining witness‘ statements has been seen by one of the best reporters in the business, and it‘s a tough act for me to follow.
(CROSSTALK)
GALANTER: Just so happens to be consistent with everything I‘ve been saying.
GOSLEE: He‘s a reporter.
GALANTER: He‘s got no case, Georgia.
GOSLEE: He‘s not a judge. He‘s not a jury.
GALANTER: But, what he has seen is accurate, it‘s consistent. It‘s consistent...
GOSLEE: I know it‘s accurate...
GALANTER: ... with everything the defense has put in their motions, Georgia...
GOSLEE: The problem that you have, Yale...
GALANTER: ... and the only thing you can say, Georgia, for weeks is that there is a prosecution and he must have more. Well, guess what. He doesn‘t have any more...
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: Yale...
GALANTER: ... and the time has come...
FILAN: Yale...
GALANTER: ... for him to make a public statement and drop this case.
FILAN: Let‘s take...
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: Georgia, told on a second. Let‘s just take a look at this. This is another one of those inconsistencies that Dan saw with his own eyes. Take a listen to this.
This is the accuser‘s statement to the police. We went into the bathroom and shut the door. Dan–not Dan Abrams, somebody else at the party–
Dan knocked on the door and asked if we wanted a drink. We said yes. He gave us a drink and we continued to talk.
Now this is the second dancer‘s statement. Now, listen to how it differs. There was a knock on the door and we were handed two drinks of equal amounts. We did sip the drinks but the accuser‘s cup fell into the sink. We began our show. The accuser began showing signs of intoxication at this point.
Dan Abrams, was she drunk? She wasn‘t drunk. She was drinking. She wasn‘t drinking.
ABRAMS: Look, my understanding from the accuser‘s statement is that she was coherent. So there‘s no allegation that she forgot portions of the evening. She doesn‘t say I must have been drugged; she has a very coherent story that she claims happened.
GOSLEE: I don‘t think it was coherent.
ABRAMS: Well, it may not be coherent, but it‘s...
GOSLEE: Well first all, you‘ve got Kim who says...
ABRAMS: Yes. Look...
GOSLEE: ... she was not intoxicated.
ABRAMS: Fair enough. Fair enough.
(CROSSTALK)
GOSLEE: She had taken Flexeril...
ABRAMS: OK.
GOSLEE: ... which you talked about. Susan said it was her own perception...
ABRAMS: You know what? You‘re right.
GOSLEE: ... a few weeks ago.
ABRAMS: She may have been...
GOSLEE: So she was clearly not coherent.
ABRAMS: She may have been totally wasted, you may be right, but I don‘t know that that exactly helps her cause here, but she seems to remember, she claims, everything that happened, every detail. Who went where, who was standing at what point, where exactly the other stripper was, and therefore she‘s not going to be saying oh, you know what, I was so drugged that I can‘t remember anything. I mean that‘s just not going to be the case.
FILAN: All right. Everyone is going to stick around. We‘re going to keep our panel. Coming up, Nifong breaks his silence for the first time in weeks, standing by the case. We‘ll tell you what he says.
And he may have won a difficult primary, but the race isn‘t over. He‘s got a new opponent.
And U.S. troops launching raids in Iraq, trying to find two missing American soldiers. A group with links to al Qaeda claims they kidnapped the Americans, so how are we going to find them and save them?
Plus, new details in the case of a man charged with aiding his wife‘s suicide after she drove a minivan off a cliff with her kids inside. It turns out his wife just found out he was having an affair.
Your e-mails send them to abramsreport@msnbc.com. Remember to include your name and where you‘re writing from. I‘ll respond at the end of the show.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Read the transcript to the Monday show
Updated: 11:05 a.m. ET June 20, 2006
Guests: Georgia Goslee, Ed West, Yale Galanter, Rick Francona, Maureen Seaberg, Sarena Straus, Allison Gilman, Joe Bodiford
SUSAN FILAN, GUEST HOST: Coming up, we get an exclusive look at all the evidence the prosecution has given the defense in the Duke lacrosse rape case and if this is all they‘ve got, things don‘t look good for the D.A.
The program about justice starts now.
Hi everyone. I‘m Susan Filan. First up on the docket, an MSNBC exclusive. The media‘s first ever look at the almost 1,300 pages of evidence Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong turned over to the defense in the Duke lacrosse rape investigation.
Bits and pieces have been released in defense motions, but our own Dan Abrams is the first to get a look at all of it. Dan thanks for joining us.
DAN ABRAMS, MSNBC GENERAL MANAGER: Well, Susan, it‘s good to be back on the program. I‘ve got to say, we hear so many times on this program again and again, we talk about this case, well, we don‘t know everything...
FILAN: Right.
ABRAMS: ... well, we haven‘t seen all the discovery. Well now I‘ve seen them all. It‘s all numbered. Every page is numbered of the discovery. I‘ve seen it all now everything that the D.A. handed over to the defense team, and this case is even weaker than I originally thought.
FILAN: Really?
ABRAMS: I mean, look, I was–I had come out on this program and said that I didn‘t think that–I thought it was time for the D.A. to drop the charges, after seeing the accuser‘s statement, after seeing the sexual assault nurse‘s statement, after seeing the statement of Dave Evans and the other captains who gave statements early on, after seeing dates for when documents were subpoenaed, all the medical reports, everything else, I don‘t understand how Mike Nifong brought this case. I really don‘t understand it. And I‘ll tell you and I mean this seriously, because you look at the accuser‘s statement and you‘ve got the quotes there...
FILAN: Right.
ABRAMS: ... it is constantly contradicted by the other evidence and even the accuser‘s statement itself is entirely contradicted by the sexual assault nurse‘s report.
FILAN: Well that‘s the thing. You‘ve always said to me what do you want to see, if you could see if for yourself, what would you want to see? I would want to see the accuser‘s statement. I‘d want to see the nurse‘s report. You‘ve seen both. Let‘s take a look.
The accuser‘s statement to the police–the boys hit and kicked me. Matt grabbed me and looked and me and said sweetheart you can‘t leave. He grabbed the back of my neck and said I‘m going to kill you (BLANK) (BLANK) if you don‘t shut up. They started kicking me in my behind and my back. Matt hit me in the face while Dan and Brett kicked me.
But then what she says to the Duke Medical University Center, to the doctor...
ABRAMS: March 14, the day after the incident.
FILAN: That‘s right. The doctor who examines her, 27-year-old female alleged assault by three men, denies other physical assault, no evidence of other physical assault–Dan.
ABRAMS: And also, I mean that‘s not the only contradiction. I mean depending on which story she‘s telling, depending on which time she‘s telling the story, it changes, meaning she went to the UNC Medical Center and there‘s a report about that from March the 15th, and the doctor there says she reports hitting her head on the sink and that that‘s how she may have had certain injuries.
It really–and then again, the sexual assault nurse has yet a different story about what she says, but most significant to me is the fact that you read the sexual assault nurse‘s statement, right, and we‘ve talked about the fact that the sexual assault nurse found some swelling there, not necessarily tearing or anything, we knew about that. What we didn‘t know, at least I didn‘t know, is that the sexual assault nurse basically says that the accuser tells her that it‘s all basically the fault of the second stripper.
I mean in the sexual assault nurse‘s report, it says that the second stripper helped carry her into the–back into the house as she‘s screaming no, no, no, that after it happens, according to the sexual assault nurse, she‘s making–she takes all of her money, that the second stripper steals her money, she helps her–helps them bring her into the house, steals her money. That‘s directly contradicting what she said in her statement where she talks about oh, we were trying to hold on to each other and we were separated. I mean...
FILAN: And that‘s what she told the police.
ABRAMS: That‘s in the written statement she gave to the police, is her saying that they were basically trying to–she and the second stripper were holding on to each other and they got separated. To the sexual assault nurse, she‘s saying basically it‘s all the second stripper‘s fault. She carries me into the house and then steals my money.
FILAN: But you know, Dan, sometimes in sexual assault cases, we‘ve talked about this before, it‘s so traumatic, you can‘t remember everything, it doesn‘t sound like you‘re saying memory loss. It sounds like you‘re saying liar.
ABRAMS: Look, I‘m not willing to go that far. I‘m not willing to say she‘s lying. What I am willing to say is that there are so many contradictions in her story that this D.A. never should have brought this case. And it is just from looking–I mean you can tell that just from looking at the sexual assault exam report and remember, her statement to the police, the written statement I read, that‘s from weeks later.
FILAN: Right.
ABRAMS: That‘s from the beginning of April. You know, this is a case in serious, serious trouble. And I think the D.A. owes it to the public, he owes it to the players, he owes it to everybody, to come out and explain what it is that he has beyond what he turned over to the defense. Now on Thursday, they‘re going to turn over more evidence...
FILAN: Right.
ABRAMS: ... the prosecutors, to the defense team. Maybe they‘ve got something new.
FILAN: Well you‘ve asked me, what else could they have?
ABRAMS: What else could they have? You know, maybe some other–one of the players came forward and–but the bottom line is, that these statements, the statements she gave to the authorities, compared to the other statements that she gave to doctors and the nurse and to–and the statement given by the second stripper, they‘re all inconsistent.
FILAN: Let‘s take a look at what she did tell the police about her and the second stripper. Three guys grabbed Nikki and Brett, Adam and Matt grabbed me. They separated us at the master bedroom door while we tried to hold on to each other. Brett, Adam and Matt took me into the bathroom.
Now let‘s also take a look at what she says–what the second dancer told the police. Kim, who‘s also Nikki...
ABRAMS: Yes.
FILAN: ... stated to Investigator Himan, she was with the accuser the whole time she was there except for a period of less than five minutes.
ABRAMS: And more importantly, I mean even when she–when Kim gives her written statement, the second stripper gives her written statement, she‘s not talking about–she doesn‘t corroborate any of what she said either...
FILAN: Right.
ABRAMS: ... to the sexual assault nurse or what she said in her statement. I mean this directly contradicts not just the second stripper, it also contradicts much of the other evidence that we‘ve learned about in this case, and this is–I was really–after seeing this, I was really disturbed. I mean because we keep coming out and my opinion has been up to this point, you know, look, the D.A. should come out, he should explain himself and rightly so.
You, in particularly Georgia and other guests on this show have said look, we don‘t know...
FILAN: Right.
ABRAMS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We don‘t know if the defense is leaking things selectively. Well now we do know.
FILAN: Yes...
ABRAMS: We do know what they had at least at the time that these guys were indicted and it ain‘t much.
FILAN: Well, he said he‘s not going to come out and speak to the public, if you want to know what he‘s got, show up in court and attend the trial.
ABRAMS: Yes. Well, OK, that‘s nice and that‘s a nice sort of like you know rah-rah, sort of you know arrogant thing to say, but the bottom line is, that considering what has been turned over, I will be surprised if this case makes it to trial.
FILAN: Let‘s bring in our panel now. Joining us now, criminal defense attorney Yale Galanter, North Carolina defense attorney Ed West, and former federal prosecutor Georgia Goslee. Georgia, let me start with you.
You haven‘t seen it all. Dan has. You heard him. He‘s looked at her statement; it‘s very different from what she told the nurse. It‘s very different from what Kim Roberts told police. How can you still defend this prosecution?
GEORGIA GOSLEE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: First of all, there is a fallacy in Dan‘s argument. First he says...
FILAN: He‘s not arguing. He‘s reporting.
GOSLEE: He–no, he‘s arguing. Believe me, he‘s setting forth a particular viewpoint and I would like to counter that viewpoint by saying first of all, there‘s a fallacy in Dan‘s argument, because he says if he won‘t go so far to say that she‘s a liar and that there are contradictory statements, unless Dan can show me some credentials or you Susan, that you‘re a trauma nurse or an expert, I said let it go to the trial and let them decide...
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: You know what. That‘s a fair point. What I probably should–what I do, do well, Georgia, is read. I mean that‘s one thing I really can do pretty well is read, and that‘s all I did, is I read.
GOSLEE: That‘s fine.
ABRAMS: I read the sexual assault nurse‘s report.
GOSLEE: OK.
ABRAMS: I read her statement. I‘ve read the second stripper‘s statement. I‘ve read all the medical reports. I‘m not an expert, but I am a good reader, and I comprehend pretty well what I read.
GOSLEE: I‘m sure you‘re a bright guy, Dan...
ABRAMS: Yes.
GOSLEE: ... but here‘s the problem. You are not the trier of fact, you‘re not the judge and you‘re not the jury.
ABRAMS: That I‘m not. That I‘m not.
GOSLEE: And you cannot simply...
FILAN: Georgia, he doesn‘t need to be a juror. He looked at it for himself and what he‘s telling you, if he was a jury, this is a big N.G., not guilty. What I‘m asking you...
GOSLEE: Well you know what, Susan...
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: Georgia, hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: Instead of saying let it go to the jury, I‘m asking you...
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: ... how can this prosecutor go forward?
GOSLEE: I‘ll tell you why, because unless you tell me some reason other than what you believe or your judgment, you can‘t simply say, I don‘t like the way this is going, and so I think we should abort it. That‘s not the way our...
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: But, when you were a prosecutor...
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: ... if your judgment was you didn‘t have a case...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I can interrupt, there‘s a larger point here.
FILAN: ... did you go forward anyway, just because you were the rodeo cowgirl...
(CROSSTALK)
GOSLEE: I‘m not the prosecutor. Nifong‘s judgment says he has something, that‘s the only reason he‘s going forward. His judgment. He‘s the prosecutor.
FILAN: Ed West, you‘re the local guy. What‘s going on down there?
ED WEST, NC DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, here‘s–the problem is and Georgia is talking about this is he may go forward with it, but it‘s because he‘s dug himself in so much, and he‘s afraid to do anything else, but I think one of the questions that ought to be asked here is, is there a way that Mike Nifong can get out of this short of going to trial and save face.
FILAN: Yale.
WEST: And I think that that‘s one of the things that‘s going to be really tough and the only thing that I can come up with that I could think of is that perhaps if somehow the accuser in this case says I just don‘t want to go forward, and then he can come to the public and he can say listen, I‘ve talked to the accuser and I just don‘t want to put her through this, that will maybe allow him save some face.
GOSLEE: Yes, but he‘s not trying to save face. That‘s your judgment. Again, if he was trying to save face, he has–he has ample evidence, he has an inclination to go forward.
YALE GALANTER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Georgia, Georgia, he‘s got no evidence and that‘s the problem here.
GOSLEE: Well then guess what?
GALANTER: He‘s got a complaining witness...
GOSLEE: Why is he prosecuting a case if he has no evidence?
GALANTER: ... who has told two different stories.
FILAN: More than two.
GALANTER: It occurred. It didn‘t occur. You know she kept flip-flopping.
None of the evidence is consistent...
GOSLEE: Yale...
GALANTER: ... with a forcible rape occurring.
GOSLEE: ... she could have told 100 stories.
GALANTER: And Georgia, the problem here...
GOSLEE: It‘s up to the jury to determine what they‘re going to believe...
GALANTER: Georgia, the problem here...
GOSLEE: ... and what they‘re not going to believe.
GALANTER: ... is that Dan and I have been telling you for weeks that the defense has not been spinning a story, has not been putting little snippets out.
GOSLEE: I‘ll never buy it, Yale.
FILAN: Georgia, hold on. Hold on.
GALANTER: Now Dan has looked at all–listen, Dan has looked at all the records. He‘s read every word of every page and all 1,300. The most important documents, the medical records and the complaining witness‘ statements has been seen by one of the best reporters in the business, and it‘s a tough act for me to follow.
(CROSSTALK)
GALANTER: Just so happens to be consistent with everything I‘ve been saying.
GOSLEE: He‘s a reporter.
GALANTER: He‘s got no case, Georgia.
GOSLEE: He‘s not a judge. He‘s not a jury.
GALANTER: But, what he has seen is accurate, it‘s consistent. It‘s consistent...
GOSLEE: I know it‘s accurate...
GALANTER: ... with everything the defense has put in their motions, Georgia...
GOSLEE: The problem that you have, Yale...
GALANTER: ... and the only thing you can say, Georgia, for weeks is that there is a prosecution and he must have more. Well, guess what. He doesn‘t have any more...
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: Yale...
GALANTER: ... and the time has come...
FILAN: Yale...
GALANTER: ... for him to make a public statement and drop this case.
FILAN: Let‘s take...
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: Georgia, told on a second. Let‘s just take a look at this. This is another one of those inconsistencies that Dan saw with his own eyes. Take a listen to this.
This is the accuser‘s statement to the police. We went into the bathroom and shut the door. Dan–not Dan Abrams, somebody else at the party–
Dan knocked on the door and asked if we wanted a drink. We said yes. He gave us a drink and we continued to talk.
Now this is the second dancer‘s statement. Now, listen to how it differs. There was a knock on the door and we were handed two drinks of equal amounts. We did sip the drinks but the accuser‘s cup fell into the sink. We began our show. The accuser began showing signs of intoxication at this point.
Dan Abrams, was she drunk? She wasn‘t drunk. She was drinking. She wasn‘t drinking.
ABRAMS: Look, my understanding from the accuser‘s statement is that she was coherent. So there‘s no allegation that she forgot portions of the evening. She doesn‘t say I must have been drugged; she has a very coherent story that she claims happened.
GOSLEE: I don‘t think it was coherent.
ABRAMS: Well, it may not be coherent, but it‘s...
GOSLEE: Well first all, you‘ve got Kim who says...
ABRAMS: Yes. Look...
GOSLEE: ... she was not intoxicated.
ABRAMS: Fair enough. Fair enough.
(CROSSTALK)
GOSLEE: She had taken Flexeril...
ABRAMS: OK.
GOSLEE: ... which you talked about. Susan said it was her own perception...
ABRAMS: You know what? You‘re right.
GOSLEE: ... a few weeks ago.
ABRAMS: She may have been...
GOSLEE: So she was clearly not coherent.
ABRAMS: She may have been totally wasted, you may be right, but I don‘t know that that exactly helps her cause here, but she seems to remember, she claims, everything that happened, every detail. Who went where, who was standing at what point, where exactly the other stripper was, and therefore she‘s not going to be saying oh, you know what, I was so drugged that I can‘t remember anything. I mean that‘s just not going to be the case.
FILAN: All right. Everyone is going to stick around. We‘re going to keep our panel. Coming up, Nifong breaks his silence for the first time in weeks, standing by the case. We‘ll tell you what he says.
And he may have won a difficult primary, but the race isn‘t over. He‘s got a new opponent.
And U.S. troops launching raids in Iraq, trying to find two missing American soldiers. A group with links to al Qaeda claims they kidnapped the Americans, so how are we going to find them and save them?
Plus, new details in the case of a man charged with aiding his wife‘s suicide after she drove a minivan off a cliff with her kids inside. It turns out his wife just found out he was having an affair.
Your e-mails send them to abramsreport@msnbc.com. Remember to include your name and where you‘re writing from. I‘ll respond at the end of the show.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)