CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Interviews With Matthew Geragos, Brian Kabateck, Ray Chandler
Aired November 25, 2003 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK GERAGOS, MICHAEL JACKSON'S ATTORNEY: This is not the lottery. This is this man's life. This is his family's life. These are scurrilous accusations. We are going to, and I've been given full authority, we will land on you like a ton of bricks. We will land on you like a hammer if you do anything to besmirch this man's reputation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST: Mark Geragos explodes at reports he and Michael Jackson were secretly videotaped as they flew to surrender Michael on child molestation charges, and that airline officials reportedly met with the media about possibly selling the videos. All this as investigators say they have so much evidence to go through from Michael's Neverland ranch that he won't be formally charged until the middle of December.
Tonight, exclusive, Matthew Geragos, Mark's brother and civil co- counsel for Michael Jackson. And Brian Kabateck, also civil co- counsel for Jackson. With more on what all of this means for the Jackson defense.
And then a rare interview with Ray Chandler, the uncle of the 13- year-old who was the first to accuse Michael Jackson of child molestation 10 years ago. And then our panel, it's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Matthew Geragos and Brian Kabateck begin things for us. Matthew Geragos is the partner of his brother, Mark Geragos. You handle civil areas and he does criminal?
MATTHEW GERAGOS, MICHAEL JACKSON'S CIVIL CO-COUNSEL: Civil litigation.
KING: And Brian, you are -- you have your own practice?
BRIAN KABATECK, MICHAEL JACKSON'S CIVIL CO-COUNSEL: I have my own firm in Los Angeles that specializes in representing plaintiffs in lawsuits and litigation.
KING: So we have two -- you together...
GERAGOS: And he's our neighbor in our building.
KING: So you're working on this together.
KABATECK: And close friend.
KING: Now, you filed charges today against the airline.
GERAGOS: We filed a...
KING: This is a private airline, right?.
GERAGOS: Private charter company. We filed for a temporary restraining order, which will lead to a full restraining order. Judge granted it today.
KING: Restraining them from?
GERAGOS: Restraining them from either broadcasting, reproducing or in any way distributing the tape that was taken of my brother and Michael Jackson.
KING: Did they definitely tape them, Brian?
KABATECK: There's no question. And they came into court with a lawyer this morning who admitted it. They admitted it yesterday to Mark on the telephone. They admitted that they have the tapes. Their story varies. At times, they taped them. At other times, they suddenly found the tapes on an airplane that they own. Absolutely ridiculous.
KING: How would anyone be able to hear anything if the subjects weren't miked?
GERAGOS: Well, that's the question. We have an understanding through what we have gathered that, in fact, there was audio to it. The lawyer today in court sort of hedged himself about the audio, which we thought was very interesting.
KING: Would that be like a hidden mike on the plane?
KABATECK: They could have had a hidden mike on the plane. We certainly know they had two, not one but two hidden cameras on the plane filming both Mark and Michael.
KING: Is that illegal?
KABATECK: Absolutely.
KING: In California and Nevada, depending on where?
KABATECK: California, federal wiretap laws. Civil laws in California that make that conduct actionable. This is very, very serious matter.
GERAGOS: The penal code here, there's a civil right, and that's what we went in under today. That gives us a right when they commit a crime such as what they did to go in to seek this type of relief.
KING: Do you think they should be charged with a crime, too?
KABATECK: That's not my job. We're civil lawyers. I think they did something that was improper. I think they did something that's very serious.
KING: Do you think the airline company, the airline company did it?
KABATECK: I think it goes right to the top of the company.
KING: OK. New developments since the court order was issued?
GERAGOS: Right, and it dovetails right into what you just asked. We learned just really within the last few hours from very reliable sources that, in fact, the tape itself, the equipment -- we do not know about the jet -- was impounded. There was a FBI search with a warrant. So it appears that there must be a criminal investigation ongoing, which ironically, now with our restraining order, you know, the FBI now has the items. In fact...
KING: What you're telling us is the FBI has this tape?
GERAGOS: That's what we understand right now.
KING: They've impounded it.
GERAGOS: They've impounded that.
KING: That would be a criminal investigation, they're not going to impound civilly.
GERAGOS: Correct. Correct. And maybe what my brother said late this afternoon that he'll come down on anybody like a ton of bricks maybe came true. I mean, they now are facing what we tried to inform the attorney for them, and in court today, that this is a criminal matter.
KING: Have either of you seen the tape?
KABATECK: No.
KING: OK. So again, breaking news here. The FBI, according to Matthew Geragos and Brian Kabateck, on informed sources to them, has impounded that tape. The FBI has possession?
GERAGOS: That's what we understand.
KING: We're going to -- here's Mark Geragos, by the way, Michael Jackson's attorney, speaking to the press today ensuring everyone listening that his client will get his strongest defense. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK GERAGOS: I also want to make one other statement and make it unequivocally clear. Michael Jackson is not going to be abused. Michael Jackson is not going to be slammed. Is not going to be a pinata for every person who has financial motives, for every person who thinks that they can get -- as the lawyer for the charter company said today, we had a lottery ticket and we thought we were going to do something with it.
This is not the lottery. This is this man's life. This is his family's life. These are scurrilous accusations. We are going to, and I've been given authority, we will land on you like a ton of bricks. We will land on you like a hammer, if you do anything to besmirch this man's reputation, anything to intrude on his privacy in any way that's actionable. We will unleash a legal torrent like you have never seen.
We -- I believe will put XtraJet out of business for this outrageous act. Anybody who's connected with it, we will put and seek to do everything else to put them out of business.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: By the way, we have been in contact with XtraJet, and a spokesman for the company XtraJet says they're not commenting at this time. Are they a big company?
GERAGOS: From what we understand -- and ironically, a couple of years back, I actually had the opportunity to sue XtraJet on behalf of an aviation fuel company. They stiffed somebody on some fuel. And...
KING: Did you win?
GERAGOS: Yes. And they paid, and what's interesting, we are looking into -- get some of the old records out. There is some stuff possibly that could be helpful.
KING: You don't want this plane touched, right, either, Brian, is that correct?
KABATECK: We don't want the plane touched. We want to have a chance to inspect the plane. We want to find out where this equipment came from, where it was mounted in the plane. How they got it on the plane. Their only defense at this point is, we didn't put the cameras in the plane. We just suddenly found the videotape. But I guess they found the videotape and then decided to sell it.
KING: How did you find out about it, Matthew?
GERAGOS: Mark got calls starting at late afternoon yesterday from other media outlets, indicating that they had seen portions of this tape, telling him specifically things that they saw about him and about Michael Jackson on the plane.
KING: Must have went berserk?
GERAGOS: Oh, I have never seen my brother -- I mean, he's faced a lot of things, but when he heard that he was recorded, I have never seen him in the mood he was.
KING: How has Michael reacted? GERAGOS: As you heard my brother state in the press conference, he, you know, he wants my brother to pursue this to the bitter end and anybody else. Anybody else.
KING: Was he as angry as Mark?
GERAGOS: Yes. From my understanding from Mark, yes.
KING: You didn't talk to Michael?
GERAGOS: I did not talk to him.
KING: But Mark says Michael was as angry?
GERAGOS: Right.
KING: Who's suing the company? Michael?
KABATECK: Michael Jackson, Mark Geragos, the law firm of Geragos and Geragos.
KING: Asking for what kind of relief? What do you want?
KABATECK: Well, we're certainly asking for an injunction, that they never -- this tape never sees the light of day. We're also asking for actual damages. We're asking for punitive damages. We're asking for trouble damages. Everything allowable under the law for this kind of conduct, just to make sure that this message gets out.
KING: And that's on behalf of both Jackson and Geragos? Both have been...
GERAGOS: And Pat Harris (ph), who you might also know, too. Pat was on the plane, too.
KING: Have you ever heard anything like this before?
KABATECK: I have not only have I never heard of anything like this before, but I am talking to my colleagues today, listening to the media, I don't think anyone has ever heard of this. And I think a lot of people are outraged at this kind of conduct.
GERAGOS: As you say, the only thing you'll ever hear about this is where law enforcement tries to get a third party to do their bidding where they can't get a warrant. And of course, if that was ever the case here, then that's a major problem.
KING: How about someone saying today if the government didn't do the tape, they can use the tape in a trial against Jackson?
GERAGOS: Well, now, this is -- we're in state court here. The penal code section 632...
KING: I mean whatever government.
GERAGOS: Whatever government, but right now, in terms of let's say the prosecution in Santa Barbara. I mean, there's a state law that prevents the tape recording of this. It makes it...
KING: So they can't use it.
GERAGOS: They cannot use it.
KABATECK: And it goes to the very sanctity of the attorney- client privilege. I mean, that is one of the cornerstones of our legal system, is the privilege that a client has to speak to his lawyer about legal matters. And Mr. Jackson got on a private plane, not an airplane with 300 other passengers, but a private plane to have a private conversation with his lawyer.
KING: What was a private plane doing with microphones in it?
GERAGOS: Well, that's the whole point, is that, you know, we had, at least from the lawyers saying that maybe it was maintenance people putting these cameras on, unbeknownst to them and it just dropped in their hand -- Brian has been saying all day too, the comment they made is it was like a lottery ticket that dropped in their hand. And I mean...
KING: So they saw this as a way to make money?
GERAGOS: Right.
KING: Did they offer it to networks?
GERAGOS: Yes.
KABATECK: We understood that they offered it to several networks...
KING: And no one accepted?
KABATECK: No one's accepted.
KING: They asked for money?
KABATECK: A lot of money.
KING: Do you fear the tape is going to leak out? Well, if the FBI has impounded it already, but it could have been copied before.
GERAGOS: Exactly, that's one of the points we made today. But the judge only has certain powers, which is to tell the person, you're not to disseminate it again. I'll say, if any other outlet or media outlet does play it or allow the sound to be played, they also would have a problem.
KING: So you're saying, let's say some outlet, cable outlet, network outlet has the tapes through some means and they air it, you'll sue them?
KABATECK: We're coming after them next. And they're going on -- they are going to be part of this and we are going to go right on down the line. We are going to find out who was part of this. We named 100 Doe's in the lawsuit, a hundred unnamed defendants so if we find out...
KING: Meaning, everybody connected with the company, everybody connected with media, anybody connected with...
GERAGOS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) touching this item and making sure that, you know, doesn't get out there. That they -- if they have an involvement...
KABATECK: We have no interest to go after people simply were the recipients of the information and refused.
KING: In a bizarre case, it gets more bizarre.
GERAGOS: Clearly, very bizarre.
KING: And again, to your knowledge, the FBI impounded the tape which would signify a criminal investigation?
GERAGOS: That's what we understand.
KABATECK: That's what it sounds like to us.
KING: Thank you both very much.
GERAGOS: Thank you.
KABATECK: Thanks, Larry.
KING: Thank you.
That was Matthew Geragos, he's the brother of Mark Geragos the civil co-counsel. Brian Kabateck, who is very close friend and will be the co-counsel for Michael Jackson, on this breaking story. When we come back, Ray Chandler, the uncle of the boy that accused Jackson back in 1993 and received a settlement. He's next. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK GERAGOS: We called this press conference today. Yesterday it came out for was publicly reported that there had been some video cameras that were installed on the jet that was chartered by my client, Michael Jackson's company, and that took us back and forth from another location to Santa Barbara. It was disclosed that those two video cameras which also apparently had audio on them where placed in there, were recording attorney-client conversations.
And then, somebody had the unmitigated gall to shop those tapes around to media outlets in order to sell them to the highest bidder. In response to that, this morning, Mr. Kabateck and Matthew, went into a Los Angeles courtroom downtown, Judge David Yappi's (ph) courtroom, and obtained a temporary restraining order against that company, XtraJet. That temporary restraining order prohibits them from doing anything with that tape, with that confidential attorney-client communication. And they cannot show it to anybody. They cannot duplicate it. They cannot sell it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CONTINUED BELOW....................................
Interviews With Matthew Geragos, Brian Kabateck, Ray Chandler
Aired November 25, 2003 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK GERAGOS, MICHAEL JACKSON'S ATTORNEY: This is not the lottery. This is this man's life. This is his family's life. These are scurrilous accusations. We are going to, and I've been given full authority, we will land on you like a ton of bricks. We will land on you like a hammer if you do anything to besmirch this man's reputation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST: Mark Geragos explodes at reports he and Michael Jackson were secretly videotaped as they flew to surrender Michael on child molestation charges, and that airline officials reportedly met with the media about possibly selling the videos. All this as investigators say they have so much evidence to go through from Michael's Neverland ranch that he won't be formally charged until the middle of December.
Tonight, exclusive, Matthew Geragos, Mark's brother and civil co- counsel for Michael Jackson. And Brian Kabateck, also civil co- counsel for Jackson. With more on what all of this means for the Jackson defense.
And then a rare interview with Ray Chandler, the uncle of the 13- year-old who was the first to accuse Michael Jackson of child molestation 10 years ago. And then our panel, it's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Matthew Geragos and Brian Kabateck begin things for us. Matthew Geragos is the partner of his brother, Mark Geragos. You handle civil areas and he does criminal?
MATTHEW GERAGOS, MICHAEL JACKSON'S CIVIL CO-COUNSEL: Civil litigation.
KING: And Brian, you are -- you have your own practice?
BRIAN KABATECK, MICHAEL JACKSON'S CIVIL CO-COUNSEL: I have my own firm in Los Angeles that specializes in representing plaintiffs in lawsuits and litigation.
KING: So we have two -- you together...
GERAGOS: And he's our neighbor in our building.
KING: So you're working on this together.
KABATECK: And close friend.
KING: Now, you filed charges today against the airline.
GERAGOS: We filed a...
KING: This is a private airline, right?.
GERAGOS: Private charter company. We filed for a temporary restraining order, which will lead to a full restraining order. Judge granted it today.
KING: Restraining them from?
GERAGOS: Restraining them from either broadcasting, reproducing or in any way distributing the tape that was taken of my brother and Michael Jackson.
KING: Did they definitely tape them, Brian?
KABATECK: There's no question. And they came into court with a lawyer this morning who admitted it. They admitted it yesterday to Mark on the telephone. They admitted that they have the tapes. Their story varies. At times, they taped them. At other times, they suddenly found the tapes on an airplane that they own. Absolutely ridiculous.
KING: How would anyone be able to hear anything if the subjects weren't miked?
GERAGOS: Well, that's the question. We have an understanding through what we have gathered that, in fact, there was audio to it. The lawyer today in court sort of hedged himself about the audio, which we thought was very interesting.
KING: Would that be like a hidden mike on the plane?
KABATECK: They could have had a hidden mike on the plane. We certainly know they had two, not one but two hidden cameras on the plane filming both Mark and Michael.
KING: Is that illegal?
KABATECK: Absolutely.
KING: In California and Nevada, depending on where?
KABATECK: California, federal wiretap laws. Civil laws in California that make that conduct actionable. This is very, very serious matter.
GERAGOS: The penal code here, there's a civil right, and that's what we went in under today. That gives us a right when they commit a crime such as what they did to go in to seek this type of relief.
KING: Do you think they should be charged with a crime, too?
KABATECK: That's not my job. We're civil lawyers. I think they did something that was improper. I think they did something that's very serious.
KING: Do you think the airline company, the airline company did it?
KABATECK: I think it goes right to the top of the company.
KING: OK. New developments since the court order was issued?
GERAGOS: Right, and it dovetails right into what you just asked. We learned just really within the last few hours from very reliable sources that, in fact, the tape itself, the equipment -- we do not know about the jet -- was impounded. There was a FBI search with a warrant. So it appears that there must be a criminal investigation ongoing, which ironically, now with our restraining order, you know, the FBI now has the items. In fact...
KING: What you're telling us is the FBI has this tape?
GERAGOS: That's what we understand right now.
KING: They've impounded it.
GERAGOS: They've impounded that.
KING: That would be a criminal investigation, they're not going to impound civilly.
GERAGOS: Correct. Correct. And maybe what my brother said late this afternoon that he'll come down on anybody like a ton of bricks maybe came true. I mean, they now are facing what we tried to inform the attorney for them, and in court today, that this is a criminal matter.
KING: Have either of you seen the tape?
KABATECK: No.
KING: OK. So again, breaking news here. The FBI, according to Matthew Geragos and Brian Kabateck, on informed sources to them, has impounded that tape. The FBI has possession?
GERAGOS: That's what we understand.
KING: We're going to -- here's Mark Geragos, by the way, Michael Jackson's attorney, speaking to the press today ensuring everyone listening that his client will get his strongest defense. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK GERAGOS: I also want to make one other statement and make it unequivocally clear. Michael Jackson is not going to be abused. Michael Jackson is not going to be slammed. Is not going to be a pinata for every person who has financial motives, for every person who thinks that they can get -- as the lawyer for the charter company said today, we had a lottery ticket and we thought we were going to do something with it.
This is not the lottery. This is this man's life. This is his family's life. These are scurrilous accusations. We are going to, and I've been given authority, we will land on you like a ton of bricks. We will land on you like a hammer, if you do anything to besmirch this man's reputation, anything to intrude on his privacy in any way that's actionable. We will unleash a legal torrent like you have never seen.
We -- I believe will put XtraJet out of business for this outrageous act. Anybody who's connected with it, we will put and seek to do everything else to put them out of business.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: By the way, we have been in contact with XtraJet, and a spokesman for the company XtraJet says they're not commenting at this time. Are they a big company?
GERAGOS: From what we understand -- and ironically, a couple of years back, I actually had the opportunity to sue XtraJet on behalf of an aviation fuel company. They stiffed somebody on some fuel. And...
KING: Did you win?
GERAGOS: Yes. And they paid, and what's interesting, we are looking into -- get some of the old records out. There is some stuff possibly that could be helpful.
KING: You don't want this plane touched, right, either, Brian, is that correct?
KABATECK: We don't want the plane touched. We want to have a chance to inspect the plane. We want to find out where this equipment came from, where it was mounted in the plane. How they got it on the plane. Their only defense at this point is, we didn't put the cameras in the plane. We just suddenly found the videotape. But I guess they found the videotape and then decided to sell it.
KING: How did you find out about it, Matthew?
GERAGOS: Mark got calls starting at late afternoon yesterday from other media outlets, indicating that they had seen portions of this tape, telling him specifically things that they saw about him and about Michael Jackson on the plane.
KING: Must have went berserk?
GERAGOS: Oh, I have never seen my brother -- I mean, he's faced a lot of things, but when he heard that he was recorded, I have never seen him in the mood he was.
KING: How has Michael reacted? GERAGOS: As you heard my brother state in the press conference, he, you know, he wants my brother to pursue this to the bitter end and anybody else. Anybody else.
KING: Was he as angry as Mark?
GERAGOS: Yes. From my understanding from Mark, yes.
KING: You didn't talk to Michael?
GERAGOS: I did not talk to him.
KING: But Mark says Michael was as angry?
GERAGOS: Right.
KING: Who's suing the company? Michael?
KABATECK: Michael Jackson, Mark Geragos, the law firm of Geragos and Geragos.
KING: Asking for what kind of relief? What do you want?
KABATECK: Well, we're certainly asking for an injunction, that they never -- this tape never sees the light of day. We're also asking for actual damages. We're asking for punitive damages. We're asking for trouble damages. Everything allowable under the law for this kind of conduct, just to make sure that this message gets out.
KING: And that's on behalf of both Jackson and Geragos? Both have been...
GERAGOS: And Pat Harris (ph), who you might also know, too. Pat was on the plane, too.
KING: Have you ever heard anything like this before?
KABATECK: I have not only have I never heard of anything like this before, but I am talking to my colleagues today, listening to the media, I don't think anyone has ever heard of this. And I think a lot of people are outraged at this kind of conduct.
GERAGOS: As you say, the only thing you'll ever hear about this is where law enforcement tries to get a third party to do their bidding where they can't get a warrant. And of course, if that was ever the case here, then that's a major problem.
KING: How about someone saying today if the government didn't do the tape, they can use the tape in a trial against Jackson?
GERAGOS: Well, now, this is -- we're in state court here. The penal code section 632...
KING: I mean whatever government.
GERAGOS: Whatever government, but right now, in terms of let's say the prosecution in Santa Barbara. I mean, there's a state law that prevents the tape recording of this. It makes it...
KING: So they can't use it.
GERAGOS: They cannot use it.
KABATECK: And it goes to the very sanctity of the attorney- client privilege. I mean, that is one of the cornerstones of our legal system, is the privilege that a client has to speak to his lawyer about legal matters. And Mr. Jackson got on a private plane, not an airplane with 300 other passengers, but a private plane to have a private conversation with his lawyer.
KING: What was a private plane doing with microphones in it?
GERAGOS: Well, that's the whole point, is that, you know, we had, at least from the lawyers saying that maybe it was maintenance people putting these cameras on, unbeknownst to them and it just dropped in their hand -- Brian has been saying all day too, the comment they made is it was like a lottery ticket that dropped in their hand. And I mean...
KING: So they saw this as a way to make money?
GERAGOS: Right.
KING: Did they offer it to networks?
GERAGOS: Yes.
KABATECK: We understood that they offered it to several networks...
KING: And no one accepted?
KABATECK: No one's accepted.
KING: They asked for money?
KABATECK: A lot of money.
KING: Do you fear the tape is going to leak out? Well, if the FBI has impounded it already, but it could have been copied before.
GERAGOS: Exactly, that's one of the points we made today. But the judge only has certain powers, which is to tell the person, you're not to disseminate it again. I'll say, if any other outlet or media outlet does play it or allow the sound to be played, they also would have a problem.
KING: So you're saying, let's say some outlet, cable outlet, network outlet has the tapes through some means and they air it, you'll sue them?
KABATECK: We're coming after them next. And they're going on -- they are going to be part of this and we are going to go right on down the line. We are going to find out who was part of this. We named 100 Doe's in the lawsuit, a hundred unnamed defendants so if we find out...
KING: Meaning, everybody connected with the company, everybody connected with media, anybody connected with...
GERAGOS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) touching this item and making sure that, you know, doesn't get out there. That they -- if they have an involvement...
KABATECK: We have no interest to go after people simply were the recipients of the information and refused.
KING: In a bizarre case, it gets more bizarre.
GERAGOS: Clearly, very bizarre.
KING: And again, to your knowledge, the FBI impounded the tape which would signify a criminal investigation?
GERAGOS: That's what we understand.
KABATECK: That's what it sounds like to us.
KING: Thank you both very much.
GERAGOS: Thank you.
KABATECK: Thanks, Larry.
KING: Thank you.
That was Matthew Geragos, he's the brother of Mark Geragos the civil co-counsel. Brian Kabateck, who is very close friend and will be the co-counsel for Michael Jackson, on this breaking story. When we come back, Ray Chandler, the uncle of the boy that accused Jackson back in 1993 and received a settlement. He's next. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK GERAGOS: We called this press conference today. Yesterday it came out for was publicly reported that there had been some video cameras that were installed on the jet that was chartered by my client, Michael Jackson's company, and that took us back and forth from another location to Santa Barbara. It was disclosed that those two video cameras which also apparently had audio on them where placed in there, were recording attorney-client conversations.
And then, somebody had the unmitigated gall to shop those tapes around to media outlets in order to sell them to the highest bidder. In response to that, this morning, Mr. Kabateck and Matthew, went into a Los Angeles courtroom downtown, Judge David Yappi's (ph) courtroom, and obtained a temporary restraining order against that company, XtraJet. That temporary restraining order prohibits them from doing anything with that tape, with that confidential attorney-client communication. And they cannot show it to anybody. They cannot duplicate it. They cannot sell it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CONTINUED BELOW....................................