Today Show: December 29, 2003
MATT LAUER, co-host: On CLOSE UP this morning, Michael Jackson's side of the story. Jim Thomas was the Santa Barbara County sheriff and is now an NBC News analyst. Diane Dimond is a TV anchor and host of "Hollywood At Large." She's been on the Jackson beat for more than 10 years.
Good morning to both of you.
LAUER: Diane, let me start with you.
Mr. JIM THOMAS (Former Sheriff, Santa Barbara County): Good morning, Matt.
(EDITED OUT DIMOND's DRIVEL)
LAUER: Jim, let me turn to you. The part of the interview where Michael Jackson claims he was mistreated or at least treated in a very rough fashion by Santa Barbara County sheriff's deputies, what was your reaction to that?
Mr. THOMAS: Well, I was pretty disturbed by that, Matt. You know, as a sheriff, I had seen times--a few times when deputies did what they weren't supposed to do. But in this case, the arrest procedure in the hangar was videotaped. On the drive actually from the hangar to the sheriff's department, he was instructed how to sit so he wasn't leaning against the handcuffs. The driver, which was the lead investigator, asked him if his handcuffs were too tight? He said no. And when he was at the jail, as you saw him walk in, you could see his hands were cuffed down in the area where they normally are around the wrists. And there were a number of people in the booking process, including some of the inmates, that can see through the glass to watch that process. (Unintelligible).
LAUER: And let me--let me play devil's advocate.
Mr. THOMAS: Sure.
LAUER: If he was hurt during the arraignment or during the booking process, and in fact his shoulder was dislocated, wouldn't you expect he'd come right out of that place, say to Geragos, 'Let's hold a press conference right now. Let's get a doctor to examine this. Let me show the people what happened?'
Mr. THOMAS: Well, beyond that, if--if you remember the videotape, when he walked out he raised both arms well above his shoulder to give the peace sign to the media that was there. So it wasn't dislocated while he was in that facility. He claimed he was in the bathroom for 45 minutes, but he wasn't even in the building for that long, and that included the entire booking process. And I have a theory...
Ms. DIMOND: These are the kind of challenging questions that didn't come up last night.
Mr. THOMAS: I--I...
Ms. DIMOND: He wasn't even in the building for 45 minutes.
LAUER: Go ahead, Jim.
Mr. THOMAS: I--I have a theory that if you remember when he got back to Las Vegas and he was in his SUV and they drove around town for, I think, two or three hours anyway, there were several times where he was reaching his arm outside the window to shake hands with people. And I wouldn't be surprised if the injury was accidental and occurred at that time.
LAUER: Let me play a portion of the interview where he talks about what happened when he was sent into a bathroom during the arraignment process.
Mr. THOMAS: Right.
LAUER: And we'll--we'll talk about it on the other side.
Mr. MICHAEL JACKSON: (From "60 Minutes") Once I went into the rest room, they locked me in there for like 45 minutes. There was do-do feces thrown all over the walls, the floor, the ceiling. And it stunk so bad, that one of the policemen came by the window and he made a sarcastic remark. He said, 'It smells'--'Does it smell good enough for you in there?'
LAUER: Diane, let me ask you about this. These Santa Barbara County sheriff's deputies know they've got one of the highest profile defendants on their hands that they're ever going to have. They know every aspect of this case had already been reported, will be reported. Does this seem logical to you?
Ms. DIMOND: I--I know a lot of men on that force. (I bet she does). And I can't imagine that they would do that. I just can't imagine it.
LAUER: Jim?
Mr. THOMAS: No. I don't think so. You know, I'm sure that the sheriff's facility...
LAUER: And we should mention, you do have a personal relationship with that department?
Mr. THOMAS: ...does not have all the things that he's accustomed.
LAUER: Oh, I said I should mention...
Mr. THOMAS: Oh, I was a sheriff there for 12 years, yeah.
LAUER: Right. Yeah.
Mr. THOMAS: And I actually worked there for 30 years. And I worked in that jail for seven years. So the description he gives is not the description that I know. You know, there were a lot of people there including the inmates that could actually--in fact, there was an interview by an inmate by the local paper who said he wished he had been treated as well when he was booked as Michael was.
Ms. DIMOND: And don't forget, Mark Geragos was with him. And if something bad had happened to Michael Jackson, if he had been locked in the bathroom for all that time, or treated roughly, Mark Geragos would have come out and had a news conference like that.
LAUER: On the subject, real quickly to each of you, of sleeping with young boys in his bed, he says that immediately makes people think of sex, but his mind does not work that way. Is it possible, Jim, that--that the two sides in this are looking at the same situation simply with a different point of view?
Mr. THOMAS: I honestly feel that Michael does not believe he's hurting these children. But I also feel that he is molesting them.
LAUER: Diane?
Ms. DIMOND: I have to agree. It's not normal for a 45-year-old man to have sleepovers with young boys. It's just not normal. No matter what his mind tells him? My mind tells me there--there's a danger signal there.
LAUER: Jim Thomas, Diane Dimond, thanks to both of you.
Ms. DIMOND: My pleasure.
MATT LAUER, co-host: On CLOSE UP this morning, Michael Jackson's side of the story. Jim Thomas was the Santa Barbara County sheriff and is now an NBC News analyst. Diane Dimond is a TV anchor and host of "Hollywood At Large." She's been on the Jackson beat for more than 10 years.
Good morning to both of you.
LAUER: Diane, let me start with you.
Mr. JIM THOMAS (Former Sheriff, Santa Barbara County): Good morning, Matt.
(EDITED OUT DIMOND's DRIVEL)
LAUER: Jim, let me turn to you. The part of the interview where Michael Jackson claims he was mistreated or at least treated in a very rough fashion by Santa Barbara County sheriff's deputies, what was your reaction to that?
Mr. THOMAS: Well, I was pretty disturbed by that, Matt. You know, as a sheriff, I had seen times--a few times when deputies did what they weren't supposed to do. But in this case, the arrest procedure in the hangar was videotaped. On the drive actually from the hangar to the sheriff's department, he was instructed how to sit so he wasn't leaning against the handcuffs. The driver, which was the lead investigator, asked him if his handcuffs were too tight? He said no. And when he was at the jail, as you saw him walk in, you could see his hands were cuffed down in the area where they normally are around the wrists. And there were a number of people in the booking process, including some of the inmates, that can see through the glass to watch that process. (Unintelligible).
LAUER: And let me--let me play devil's advocate.
Mr. THOMAS: Sure.
LAUER: If he was hurt during the arraignment or during the booking process, and in fact his shoulder was dislocated, wouldn't you expect he'd come right out of that place, say to Geragos, 'Let's hold a press conference right now. Let's get a doctor to examine this. Let me show the people what happened?'
Mr. THOMAS: Well, beyond that, if--if you remember the videotape, when he walked out he raised both arms well above his shoulder to give the peace sign to the media that was there. So it wasn't dislocated while he was in that facility. He claimed he was in the bathroom for 45 minutes, but he wasn't even in the building for that long, and that included the entire booking process. And I have a theory...
Ms. DIMOND: These are the kind of challenging questions that didn't come up last night.
Mr. THOMAS: I--I...
Ms. DIMOND: He wasn't even in the building for 45 minutes.
LAUER: Go ahead, Jim.
Mr. THOMAS: I--I have a theory that if you remember when he got back to Las Vegas and he was in his SUV and they drove around town for, I think, two or three hours anyway, there were several times where he was reaching his arm outside the window to shake hands with people. And I wouldn't be surprised if the injury was accidental and occurred at that time.
LAUER: Let me play a portion of the interview where he talks about what happened when he was sent into a bathroom during the arraignment process.
Mr. THOMAS: Right.
LAUER: And we'll--we'll talk about it on the other side.
Mr. MICHAEL JACKSON: (From "60 Minutes") Once I went into the rest room, they locked me in there for like 45 minutes. There was do-do feces thrown all over the walls, the floor, the ceiling. And it stunk so bad, that one of the policemen came by the window and he made a sarcastic remark. He said, 'It smells'--'Does it smell good enough for you in there?'
LAUER: Diane, let me ask you about this. These Santa Barbara County sheriff's deputies know they've got one of the highest profile defendants on their hands that they're ever going to have. They know every aspect of this case had already been reported, will be reported. Does this seem logical to you?
Ms. DIMOND: I--I know a lot of men on that force. (I bet she does). And I can't imagine that they would do that. I just can't imagine it.
LAUER: Jim?
Mr. THOMAS: No. I don't think so. You know, I'm sure that the sheriff's facility...
LAUER: And we should mention, you do have a personal relationship with that department?
Mr. THOMAS: ...does not have all the things that he's accustomed.
LAUER: Oh, I said I should mention...
Mr. THOMAS: Oh, I was a sheriff there for 12 years, yeah.
LAUER: Right. Yeah.
Mr. THOMAS: And I actually worked there for 30 years. And I worked in that jail for seven years. So the description he gives is not the description that I know. You know, there were a lot of people there including the inmates that could actually--in fact, there was an interview by an inmate by the local paper who said he wished he had been treated as well when he was booked as Michael was.
Ms. DIMOND: And don't forget, Mark Geragos was with him. And if something bad had happened to Michael Jackson, if he had been locked in the bathroom for all that time, or treated roughly, Mark Geragos would have come out and had a news conference like that.
LAUER: On the subject, real quickly to each of you, of sleeping with young boys in his bed, he says that immediately makes people think of sex, but his mind does not work that way. Is it possible, Jim, that--that the two sides in this are looking at the same situation simply with a different point of view?
Mr. THOMAS: I honestly feel that Michael does not believe he's hurting these children. But I also feel that he is molesting them.
LAUER: Diane?
Ms. DIMOND: I have to agree. It's not normal for a 45-year-old man to have sleepovers with young boys. It's just not normal. No matter what his mind tells him? My mind tells me there--there's a danger signal there.
LAUER: Jim Thomas, Diane Dimond, thanks to both of you.
Ms. DIMOND: My pleasure.