'The Abrams Report' for August 16
Read the complete transcript to Monday's show Updated: 9:22 a.m. ET Aug. 17, 2004Guest: Dean Johnson, Mickey Sherman, Geoffrey Fieger, Norm Early, Jeralyn Merritt, Jim Thomas
And Michael Jackson back in court with his family, as the district attorney prosecuting him is forced to take the stand.
The program about justice starts now.
...
(MUSIC)
ABRAMS: That‘s a Michael Jackson song presumably about the bad man out to get him, D.A. Tom Sneddon, but today Jackson had a chance to get him back, sort of. Jackson and four of his brothers and sisters leaving Santa Barbara courtroom just minutes ago, all dressed in white. They were there to show support for Jackson as his attorneys faced off against Tom Sneddon. Remember, Michael Jackson wasn‘t required to attend today‘s hearing but he was there to watch Sneddon answer questions about his role in a raid on the office of a private investigator.
NBC‘s Mike Taibbi was inside the courtroom. So, Mike, what was the issue that was supposed to be resolved and exactly what happened today in court?
MIKE TAIBBI, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey Dan. Well, it‘s not resolved quite yet. It all revolves around the premise that as a prosecutor you cannot invade the defense camp by raiding the office of a private investigator you know or should know is in the employee of one of the suspect‘s attorneys, in this case former Jackson attorney Mark Geragos. This question has been hoping around for a while and now it‘s in open court.
Very testy session today on a couple of occasions. The judge admonishing Mr. Sneddon to start acting like a witness, step back and act like a witness, not like an advocate, and I‘m going to stop this before it starts, et cetera, et cetera. But the exchanges went on all morning long. Sneddon denied that he or anybody on his team, his investigators, co-prosecutors really knew that in this case Bradley Miller worked for Mark Geragos.
This afternoon there was the big finish. Tom Mesereau, the lead Jackson attorney, having the following exchange with Sneddon. This about a conference call on July 8 between Sneddon and all his co-prosecutors and all the members of the Jackson defense team.
Question, did you know–this question on July 8 -- did you know that Bradley Miller worked for Mark Geragos before you executed the search warrant?
Answered yes.
Unequivocally?
Yes.
Nobody–none of the other four men involved in that conference call on Mr. Sneddon‘s team raised any objection, interjected, contradicted or qualified that statement. Sneddon then said that the next morning he woke up realized he was very upset the afternoon before for another reason and it was all a mistake and he retracted that statement and did not sign an affidavit to that effect that he said he would.
And the consequence of all this could be huge. Some evidence, some key evidence, maybe a lot of it obtained in that search could be tossed from this case. It‘s important to the conspiracy count on this case and that‘s central to it. So a big day today but no decision yet by Judge Melville. It is all in his hands, everything is on the table–Dan.
ABRAMS: Mike Taibbi, thanks a lot.
TAIBBI: All right.
ABRAMS: Question, did Tom Sneddon go too far in his raid? Did he know about it? Did he jeopardize his own case?
“My Take”–it‘s weird that Sneddon was involved with a raid on the private investigator‘s office in the first place. But more than being odd, it was just asking for trouble. As to whether he knew or didn‘t know that Miller was a private eye, I don‘t know.
We‘re joined again by criminal defense attorneys Geoffrey Fieger and Mickey Sherman, but also by the former Santa Barbara sheriff, Jim Thomas, who has a long relationship with Tom Sneddon.
All right, Jim, let me start with you. Bottom line is this looks bad for Tom Sneddon. The question and answer that Mike Taibbi just read that they knew that Brad Miller worked for Mark Geragos and yet there is Tom Sneddon himself, the D.A. of Santa Barbara helping in a raid on his office.
JIM THOMAS, FMR. SANTA BARBARA SHERIFF: Sure, but when you think about why he was doing it, and he explained it during the session, is that he was on his way to L.A. for another event and what they needed is–they needed a photograph and a confirmation of where the office was for the face of the warrant. He said I‘ll do it since I‘m going down there. At that time no more than six people knew about the case anyway and he did that task.
So he wasn‘t down there doing an investigation or any questioning or any other thing of that matter and he did meet with the mother of the alleged victim and had her identify Brad Miller by photographs. So as he explains it it‘s not quite as you would think that he‘s out there actually doing the investigation himself.
ABRAMS: But he knows that Brad Miller works for Mark Geragos and yet, he‘s still going forward with raids on his office.
THOMAS: No, Dan, that‘s not true. In fact, he said I am 100 percent confident that we did not know Brad Miller was working for Mark Geragos prior to the execution of the warrant. What Mike was referring to was a conference call between the D.A.‘s office and the defense team. However, the D.A. said I made a mistake; it was after I was angry about something. We corrected it and we did not know. And in order for the judge to find that he did, in essence, he is going to have to find that the D.A. of Santa Barbara County lied under oath.
ABRAMS: All right. Geoffrey Fieger, is that going to be tough to prove?
FIEGER: Well, it‘s tough for another reason. Sneddon has an agenda and he shouldn‘t be out there. We had a prosecutor here in Oakland County who went overboard with the Kevorkian case because he used to go out on drug raids. He thought he was a cop and he liked doing that sort of thing and he would regularly get spanked for doing it. Sneddon shouldn‘t have been out there.
The problem is, is the Fourth Amendment, the unreasonable search and seizure, the protections against evidence taken wrongly have basically been so diluted or eliminated by the higher courts that the protections now are meaningless. It would take a very, very brave judge to preclude that evidence and then it would go through appeals. And I don‘t know if it would be successful.
ABRAMS: Yes. Mickey Sherman.
SHERMAN: I think Jim Thomas is you know trying to be very loyal but you know that excuse is one notch lower than the dog ate my homework. You know the problem with this case is that Michael Jackson and his team have been saying along that Sneddon has a motive here. That he is out on a mission from God. That he has been heavy handed and that he‘s just gone too far over the line.
And this certainly seems to prove it. You don‘t break into somebody‘s place and look at the lawyer‘s briefcase. And essentially that‘s what happened here. The man put 54 search warrants together. He‘s on the search warrants himself. It makes no sense. He crossed way over the line. I think he‘s got some serious problems, personally.
ABRAMS: All right, Sheriff Thomas, you get the final word on this.
THOMAS: Well with all due respect to Mickey, that‘s not case and he does put his name on the warrants because it‘s required in California that they be looked at by somebody from the D.A.‘s office before they‘re given to the magistrate, at least that‘s the way it is in this county. The D.A. has not involved himself any more than what Tom Sneddon has done for the past 21 years as a very effective D.A. for Santa Barbara County.
Yes, I am prejudiced. I know the man. I‘ve worked for him for many years. I know he‘s an honest hardworking prosecutor. And I don‘t think that this case is in jeopardy. Time will tell, I guess, Dan.
ABRAMS: This is why D.A.s don‘t get involved in the nitty gritty ladies and gentlemen, because when they do, every one of their actions get scrutinized.
Jim Thomas, Geoffrey Fieger, and Mickey Sherman, good stuff. Thanks guys. Appreciate it.
Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5733827/
Read the complete transcript to Monday's show Updated: 9:22 a.m. ET Aug. 17, 2004Guest: Dean Johnson, Mickey Sherman, Geoffrey Fieger, Norm Early, Jeralyn Merritt, Jim Thomas
And Michael Jackson back in court with his family, as the district attorney prosecuting him is forced to take the stand.
The program about justice starts now.
...
(MUSIC)
ABRAMS: That‘s a Michael Jackson song presumably about the bad man out to get him, D.A. Tom Sneddon, but today Jackson had a chance to get him back, sort of. Jackson and four of his brothers and sisters leaving Santa Barbara courtroom just minutes ago, all dressed in white. They were there to show support for Jackson as his attorneys faced off against Tom Sneddon. Remember, Michael Jackson wasn‘t required to attend today‘s hearing but he was there to watch Sneddon answer questions about his role in a raid on the office of a private investigator.
NBC‘s Mike Taibbi was inside the courtroom. So, Mike, what was the issue that was supposed to be resolved and exactly what happened today in court?
MIKE TAIBBI, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey Dan. Well, it‘s not resolved quite yet. It all revolves around the premise that as a prosecutor you cannot invade the defense camp by raiding the office of a private investigator you know or should know is in the employee of one of the suspect‘s attorneys, in this case former Jackson attorney Mark Geragos. This question has been hoping around for a while and now it‘s in open court.
Very testy session today on a couple of occasions. The judge admonishing Mr. Sneddon to start acting like a witness, step back and act like a witness, not like an advocate, and I‘m going to stop this before it starts, et cetera, et cetera. But the exchanges went on all morning long. Sneddon denied that he or anybody on his team, his investigators, co-prosecutors really knew that in this case Bradley Miller worked for Mark Geragos.
This afternoon there was the big finish. Tom Mesereau, the lead Jackson attorney, having the following exchange with Sneddon. This about a conference call on July 8 between Sneddon and all his co-prosecutors and all the members of the Jackson defense team.
Question, did you know–this question on July 8 -- did you know that Bradley Miller worked for Mark Geragos before you executed the search warrant?
Answered yes.
Unequivocally?
Yes.
Nobody–none of the other four men involved in that conference call on Mr. Sneddon‘s team raised any objection, interjected, contradicted or qualified that statement. Sneddon then said that the next morning he woke up realized he was very upset the afternoon before for another reason and it was all a mistake and he retracted that statement and did not sign an affidavit to that effect that he said he would.
And the consequence of all this could be huge. Some evidence, some key evidence, maybe a lot of it obtained in that search could be tossed from this case. It‘s important to the conspiracy count on this case and that‘s central to it. So a big day today but no decision yet by Judge Melville. It is all in his hands, everything is on the table–Dan.
ABRAMS: Mike Taibbi, thanks a lot.
TAIBBI: All right.
ABRAMS: Question, did Tom Sneddon go too far in his raid? Did he know about it? Did he jeopardize his own case?
“My Take”–it‘s weird that Sneddon was involved with a raid on the private investigator‘s office in the first place. But more than being odd, it was just asking for trouble. As to whether he knew or didn‘t know that Miller was a private eye, I don‘t know.
We‘re joined again by criminal defense attorneys Geoffrey Fieger and Mickey Sherman, but also by the former Santa Barbara sheriff, Jim Thomas, who has a long relationship with Tom Sneddon.
All right, Jim, let me start with you. Bottom line is this looks bad for Tom Sneddon. The question and answer that Mike Taibbi just read that they knew that Brad Miller worked for Mark Geragos and yet there is Tom Sneddon himself, the D.A. of Santa Barbara helping in a raid on his office.
JIM THOMAS, FMR. SANTA BARBARA SHERIFF: Sure, but when you think about why he was doing it, and he explained it during the session, is that he was on his way to L.A. for another event and what they needed is–they needed a photograph and a confirmation of where the office was for the face of the warrant. He said I‘ll do it since I‘m going down there. At that time no more than six people knew about the case anyway and he did that task.
So he wasn‘t down there doing an investigation or any questioning or any other thing of that matter and he did meet with the mother of the alleged victim and had her identify Brad Miller by photographs. So as he explains it it‘s not quite as you would think that he‘s out there actually doing the investigation himself.
ABRAMS: But he knows that Brad Miller works for Mark Geragos and yet, he‘s still going forward with raids on his office.
THOMAS: No, Dan, that‘s not true. In fact, he said I am 100 percent confident that we did not know Brad Miller was working for Mark Geragos prior to the execution of the warrant. What Mike was referring to was a conference call between the D.A.‘s office and the defense team. However, the D.A. said I made a mistake; it was after I was angry about something. We corrected it and we did not know. And in order for the judge to find that he did, in essence, he is going to have to find that the D.A. of Santa Barbara County lied under oath.
ABRAMS: All right. Geoffrey Fieger, is that going to be tough to prove?
FIEGER: Well, it‘s tough for another reason. Sneddon has an agenda and he shouldn‘t be out there. We had a prosecutor here in Oakland County who went overboard with the Kevorkian case because he used to go out on drug raids. He thought he was a cop and he liked doing that sort of thing and he would regularly get spanked for doing it. Sneddon shouldn‘t have been out there.
The problem is, is the Fourth Amendment, the unreasonable search and seizure, the protections against evidence taken wrongly have basically been so diluted or eliminated by the higher courts that the protections now are meaningless. It would take a very, very brave judge to preclude that evidence and then it would go through appeals. And I don‘t know if it would be successful.
ABRAMS: Yes. Mickey Sherman.
SHERMAN: I think Jim Thomas is you know trying to be very loyal but you know that excuse is one notch lower than the dog ate my homework. You know the problem with this case is that Michael Jackson and his team have been saying along that Sneddon has a motive here. That he is out on a mission from God. That he has been heavy handed and that he‘s just gone too far over the line.
And this certainly seems to prove it. You don‘t break into somebody‘s place and look at the lawyer‘s briefcase. And essentially that‘s what happened here. The man put 54 search warrants together. He‘s on the search warrants himself. It makes no sense. He crossed way over the line. I think he‘s got some serious problems, personally.
ABRAMS: All right, Sheriff Thomas, you get the final word on this.
THOMAS: Well with all due respect to Mickey, that‘s not case and he does put his name on the warrants because it‘s required in California that they be looked at by somebody from the D.A.‘s office before they‘re given to the magistrate, at least that‘s the way it is in this county. The D.A. has not involved himself any more than what Tom Sneddon has done for the past 21 years as a very effective D.A. for Santa Barbara County.
Yes, I am prejudiced. I know the man. I‘ve worked for him for many years. I know he‘s an honest hardworking prosecutor. And I don‘t think that this case is in jeopardy. Time will tell, I guess, Dan.
ABRAMS: This is why D.A.s don‘t get involved in the nitty gritty ladies and gentlemen, because when they do, every one of their actions get scrutinized.
Jim Thomas, Geoffrey Fieger, and Mickey Sherman, good stuff. Thanks guys. Appreciate it.
Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5733827/