http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8895032/
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for August 9
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COSBY: Thank you.
And now to big waves for my exclusive interview with two of the Jackson jurors who voted to acquit the pop star but now say that he is guilty. We‘ll have an exclusive interview from two jurors who are defending their vote in a minute. But first, here‘s MSNBC‘s Jennifer London. She‘s LIVE AND DIRECT with reaction from Jackson‘s California community.
You got a good pulse on things, Jennifer.
JENNIFER LONDON, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi and good evening, Rita. We went to a neighborhood hotspot just a few miles from the Jackson family home in Encino, California, and here‘s what some folks are saying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really think he‘s a danger to young boys.
LONDON (voice-over): At a local restaurant, the crowd was glued to the exclusive interview with the two Jackson jurors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I‘m not that surprised that a couple of them disagreed with the actual verdict.
LONDON: Zach Galulla (ph) followed the Jackson trial closely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was kind of surprised afterwards, when the verdict came out that he was not guilty, and I almost suspected that something was, like, troubled within the jury.
LONDON: But Zach and others say they‘re troubled with the timing.
Why are Ellie Cook and Ray Hultman speaking out now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, they should have said that during the trial, should have stood up for what they believed in before they changed their minds and apparently went along with everybody else.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also, their motives are kind of questionable as to why they‘re doing that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Money. Pure and simple, money.
LONDON: Jury consultant Lee Meihls isn‘t so sure. She worked with the defense team and helped select the Jackson jury. She says it‘s not the book deals that bother her.
LEE MEIHLS, JURY CONSULTANT: What worries me is people who have never been on a jury before who are paying attention to this now could be affected by it and then lower the bar, lower the burden of proof, and that would be wrong.
COSBY: Meihls also says it‘s been her experience that jurors become a family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We certainly have formed lasting friendships.
LONDON: And once they step back from the case and get a little distance, they can sometimes see things differently.
MEIHLS: The dynamic has changed for these two jurors. They‘re no longer with that family. Now Ms. Cook is back with her daughter.
LONDON: And Michael Jackson is back with his family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It‘s too late. I mean, he‘s off the hook.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LONDON: Another viewer I spoke with last night said she was shocked to learn that a juror went to Michael Jackson‘s victory party. She said she finds that, quote, “appalling.” And yet another woman that I spoke with last night said, Rita, she is going to reserve making any judgment because she says we simply don‘t know what happened behind closed doors.
COSBY: Interesting to hear, Jennifer. Thank you very much.
Well, two more of the Jackson jurors are reacting tonight to that big interview where two of the jurors say that there was pressure to acquit the pop star in the jury room. Another exclusive tonight, former Jackson juror Katharina Carls joins us now live in her first TV interview since the end of the trial. She was one of the first jurors in favor of a guilty verdict, but then she changed her vote to innocent. We also have Mike Stevens, who says Jackson was not guilty. I want to thank both of you for being with us. But first, I want to show a quick sample of last night‘s show to everybody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
What happened that day when the verdict came down? How bad was the air?
ELEANOR COOK, JACKSON JUROR: The air reeked of hatred, and people were angry. And I have never been in an atmosphere like that before. I just felt that I–that they could turn on me any minute, and there wasn‘t anything I could do about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Pretty strong statements. Katharina, how intense was it in the jury room?
KATHARINA CARLS, JACKSON JUROR NO. 9: It got intense towards the end, when–I mean, three of us, voted for guilty. And you know, some statements were made that I thought were improper, you know, personal attacks. And just–I was surprised that somebody would make such a statement.
COSBY: I heard even in your case, you‘re Indonesian, I believe, and they were saying maybe you don‘t understand the American justice system. I‘m sure–was that offensive to you? It must have been.
CARLS: Not offensive, but I just feel very disappointed. I thought I know, you know, these people for four months, and they are well educated people, and I didn‘t expect that from any of them.
COSBY: Mike, how did you feel? Was it pretty heated in there?
MIKE STEVENS, JACKSON JUROR NO. 7: I thought we all got along pretty good. I mean, we did get along. We did have our moments when it did get pretty heated, but it calmed down after a little while.
COSBY: Not according to Ray and Ellie. They said it was just horrible. In fact, Ellie last night said the air was thick and full of hatred.
STEVENS: Where? When was it filled with hatred? I mean, how was it hatred? I‘d love to know–I‘d love to get her opinion on how there was hatred in the air.
COSBY: Well one of the things she said was that, you know, here she -
· I‘m a 79-year-old woman, they were saying, You don‘t know what you‘re talking about. That‘s pretty tough talk.
STEVENS: You know what‘s funny is that I think she said this to Paulina. She said, Honey, I‘m 79 years old, I can do whatever I want to do, you know? And so how could she say that she felt threatened when she came up with a comment like that?
COSBY: Katharina, I want to get back to you because you changed your vote. Why did you change it?
CARLS: Yes.
COSBY: Originally, you said he was guilty and then you were with Ray and Ellie, and then you switched to innocent over the weekend.
CARLS: Yes. It was very hard for me because I believed the boy and I believed that Michael is a child molester. And so I spent the whole weekend thinking about it, and I still cannot get past the reasonable doubt. There is (INAUDIBLE) reasonable doubt there, so I have to vote not guilty.
COSBY: But you just said to me that you believe Michael Jackson is a child molester, is that correct?
CARLS: That‘s right.
COSBY: But you let him walk, based on the law, is what you‘re saying.
CARLS: Well, I have to–I have to follow the law, yes, and the jury instruction.
COSBY: And you‘re just saying that there just wasn‘t enough evidence, based on what you looked at in the law?
CARLS: I–well, there–it‘s just the family background. I kept asking myself, how–is there any slight possibility that this boy might lie at all? And my answer was yes. So I have to vote not guilty, even if there is a slight possibility.
COSBY: But still in your heart of hearts, you‘re telling me that you believe Michael Jackson is a child molester.
CARLS: Yes. Yes, I do.
COSBY: I want to show a comment, if I could–this is from last night‘s interview–about the jury foreman. Let‘s take a listen to what Ellie and Ray had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOK: He said if I could not change my mind or go with the group or be more understanding, that he would have to notify the bailiff, the bailiff would notify the judge, and the judge would have me removed. I kept my position that I felt Michael was guilty.
COSBY: So if you stuck your guns that Michael Jackson was guilty, the foreman said you‘re going to be kicked off.
COOK: I‘m going to be removed or kicked off, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Mike, were you there and did you hear the foreman–Katharina told us before the show she heard the foreman use that language. Did you hear that?
STEVENS: I didn‘t hear it like that, but what I heard why that was said was because she kept making remarks, and she made several remarks involving her own opinion and the way her heart felt. And when you‘re doing deliberations, you‘re not supposed to have heartfelt ideas or whatever about things, you‘re supposed to follow what the law says and what the evidence shows, not what your heart feels. Am I right?
COSBY: Well, absolutely. You got to look at the evidence and look at the facts, and both of you did, and again, both of you acquitted him, even though Katharina, that‘s a very strong statement you still believe, as you said, that he is a child molester. Very strong stuff. Thank you, both of you, very much. We appreciate you being with us.
And coming up next everyone; What does that mean for Michael Jackson? Does this happen all the time in jury rooms? I‘ll be joined LIVE AND DIRECT by famed legal experts Catherine Crier and Roy Black. And the interview we promised. How does the most famous Hollywood madam earn an honest living these days? Heidi Fleiss will tell us LIVE AND DIRECT coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: From MSNBC world headquarters, here is Rita Cosby.
COSBY: Well, we just heard from two other Jackson jurors, Katharina Carls and also Mike Stevens. Joining us now is criminal defense attorney Roy Black and Court TV news anchor Catherine Crier for reaction.
Catherine, I‘ve got to go to you. First of all, this was pretty stunning, I thought. You know, now we have a third juror who‘s saying, “I believe Michael Jackson is a child molester.”
CATHERINE CRIER, COURT TV NEWS ANCHOR: Absolutely. I think this is pretty disconcerting for someone who spent all these years in the criminal justice system. I‘m very, very uncomfortable with all of these jurors, Rita.
Great interviews on your behalf, but, in fact, these people ought to know–just watch “Law and Order,” for God‘s sake–that you go to the bailiff if there‘s a problem, you go to the judge if there‘s a problem. But the foreman of a jury does not kick anyone off. And for them to basically sell out so easily, I find very troublesome.
COSBY: And Roy, what is your reaction? I mean, you know, first on the issue of Katharina Carls, who we just heard, because she said, “Look, I do think he‘s a child molester, but based on the letter of law,” she at least looked at the things–you know, theoretically looked through the steps and she still said, “That‘s it.”
This was a responsible juror, in that sense, from the letter of the law, correct?
ROY BLACK, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. You have to give her a lot of credit, despite her personal feelings. And I‘m sure what happened, that she thought the earlier testimony from ‘93, ‘94, ‘95 was pretty compelling, but the actual accusations in the case were so weak that it certainly wasn‘t proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So you have to give her credit to be able to sift the good from the bad.
COSBY: Catherine, on the other hand, you know, the two jurors who I did interview yesterday just talked about intense pressure in the jury room. You know, the older lady said this–and, in fact, Katharina Carls confirmed to us, indeed, some of these statements were made.
And what the juror said to me was, “Walk a day in my shoes.” You know, maybe you and I might not have caved, but they said, “How can you say that? You‘re not 79 years old,” you know, “You didn‘t just lose your friend, go in and just be very emotional in the jury room.”
CRIER: I still have a real problem with that. What Roy said is absolutely correct. When I first heard the verdict of the jury–I mean, I understood, having watched all the testimony, that there were real questions about the credibility of the accuser‘s mother, particularly, which reflected on the accuser. And you can understand a not-guilty verdict.
But, in fact, if two or more of the jurors simply, quote, “caved”
because they some how felt intimidated, particularly when you look at Ray -
· I mean, this isn‘t just–and this grandmother did not strike me as some lily-livered soul, when she came out there during the initial jury conference, and said, “Well, you know, that woman was wagging her finger. Don‘t you wag your finger at me, lady.”
She came across as pretty tough. And, in fact, if they somehow, you know, caved because they felt, quote, “intimidated,” then I think that‘s a real blow to the jury system.
COSBY: And what is the lesson for the jury system, Roy? I mean, do you think some people are going to take something away from this and change what they do when they go in the jury room?
BLACK: Well, Rita, I‘m reminded of a statement by Teddy Roosevelt about one of our Supreme Court justices. He said, “That man has a backbone carved out of a banana.” And that‘s what we have with these jurors.
I mean, if they really believed that he was guilty, these threats should not have been enough to change their minds. I‘m going to go to the judge? Well, what‘s wrong with going to the judge? I mean, you should be happy somebody should go to the judge or the bailiff.
Listen, let‘s face it. In almost every jury deliberations, they‘re going to get high-spirited and yelling at times. I mean, that‘s just what happens in a discussion among people. You shouldn‘t cave in if you really have a firm belief in guilt or innocence.
So I‘m sorry, but I‘m not particularly impressed with the integrity of these jurors.
COSBY: Well, Roy Black and Catherine, we thank you both very much, two of the best in the business. Thanks for being with us tonight.
CRIER: You bet.
BLACK: Thank you, Rita.
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'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for August 9
.....................
COSBY: Thank you.
And now to big waves for my exclusive interview with two of the Jackson jurors who voted to acquit the pop star but now say that he is guilty. We‘ll have an exclusive interview from two jurors who are defending their vote in a minute. But first, here‘s MSNBC‘s Jennifer London. She‘s LIVE AND DIRECT with reaction from Jackson‘s California community.
You got a good pulse on things, Jennifer.
JENNIFER LONDON, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi and good evening, Rita. We went to a neighborhood hotspot just a few miles from the Jackson family home in Encino, California, and here‘s what some folks are saying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really think he‘s a danger to young boys.
LONDON (voice-over): At a local restaurant, the crowd was glued to the exclusive interview with the two Jackson jurors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I‘m not that surprised that a couple of them disagreed with the actual verdict.
LONDON: Zach Galulla (ph) followed the Jackson trial closely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was kind of surprised afterwards, when the verdict came out that he was not guilty, and I almost suspected that something was, like, troubled within the jury.
LONDON: But Zach and others say they‘re troubled with the timing.
Why are Ellie Cook and Ray Hultman speaking out now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, they should have said that during the trial, should have stood up for what they believed in before they changed their minds and apparently went along with everybody else.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also, their motives are kind of questionable as to why they‘re doing that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Money. Pure and simple, money.
LONDON: Jury consultant Lee Meihls isn‘t so sure. She worked with the defense team and helped select the Jackson jury. She says it‘s not the book deals that bother her.
LEE MEIHLS, JURY CONSULTANT: What worries me is people who have never been on a jury before who are paying attention to this now could be affected by it and then lower the bar, lower the burden of proof, and that would be wrong.
COSBY: Meihls also says it‘s been her experience that jurors become a family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We certainly have formed lasting friendships.
LONDON: And once they step back from the case and get a little distance, they can sometimes see things differently.
MEIHLS: The dynamic has changed for these two jurors. They‘re no longer with that family. Now Ms. Cook is back with her daughter.
LONDON: And Michael Jackson is back with his family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It‘s too late. I mean, he‘s off the hook.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LONDON: Another viewer I spoke with last night said she was shocked to learn that a juror went to Michael Jackson‘s victory party. She said she finds that, quote, “appalling.” And yet another woman that I spoke with last night said, Rita, she is going to reserve making any judgment because she says we simply don‘t know what happened behind closed doors.
COSBY: Interesting to hear, Jennifer. Thank you very much.
Well, two more of the Jackson jurors are reacting tonight to that big interview where two of the jurors say that there was pressure to acquit the pop star in the jury room. Another exclusive tonight, former Jackson juror Katharina Carls joins us now live in her first TV interview since the end of the trial. She was one of the first jurors in favor of a guilty verdict, but then she changed her vote to innocent. We also have Mike Stevens, who says Jackson was not guilty. I want to thank both of you for being with us. But first, I want to show a quick sample of last night‘s show to everybody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
What happened that day when the verdict came down? How bad was the air?
ELEANOR COOK, JACKSON JUROR: The air reeked of hatred, and people were angry. And I have never been in an atmosphere like that before. I just felt that I–that they could turn on me any minute, and there wasn‘t anything I could do about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Pretty strong statements. Katharina, how intense was it in the jury room?
KATHARINA CARLS, JACKSON JUROR NO. 9: It got intense towards the end, when–I mean, three of us, voted for guilty. And you know, some statements were made that I thought were improper, you know, personal attacks. And just–I was surprised that somebody would make such a statement.
COSBY: I heard even in your case, you‘re Indonesian, I believe, and they were saying maybe you don‘t understand the American justice system. I‘m sure–was that offensive to you? It must have been.
CARLS: Not offensive, but I just feel very disappointed. I thought I know, you know, these people for four months, and they are well educated people, and I didn‘t expect that from any of them.
COSBY: Mike, how did you feel? Was it pretty heated in there?
MIKE STEVENS, JACKSON JUROR NO. 7: I thought we all got along pretty good. I mean, we did get along. We did have our moments when it did get pretty heated, but it calmed down after a little while.
COSBY: Not according to Ray and Ellie. They said it was just horrible. In fact, Ellie last night said the air was thick and full of hatred.
STEVENS: Where? When was it filled with hatred? I mean, how was it hatred? I‘d love to know–I‘d love to get her opinion on how there was hatred in the air.
COSBY: Well one of the things she said was that, you know, here she -
· I‘m a 79-year-old woman, they were saying, You don‘t know what you‘re talking about. That‘s pretty tough talk.
STEVENS: You know what‘s funny is that I think she said this to Paulina. She said, Honey, I‘m 79 years old, I can do whatever I want to do, you know? And so how could she say that she felt threatened when she came up with a comment like that?
COSBY: Katharina, I want to get back to you because you changed your vote. Why did you change it?
CARLS: Yes.
COSBY: Originally, you said he was guilty and then you were with Ray and Ellie, and then you switched to innocent over the weekend.
CARLS: Yes. It was very hard for me because I believed the boy and I believed that Michael is a child molester. And so I spent the whole weekend thinking about it, and I still cannot get past the reasonable doubt. There is (INAUDIBLE) reasonable doubt there, so I have to vote not guilty.
COSBY: But you just said to me that you believe Michael Jackson is a child molester, is that correct?
CARLS: That‘s right.
COSBY: But you let him walk, based on the law, is what you‘re saying.
CARLS: Well, I have to–I have to follow the law, yes, and the jury instruction.
COSBY: And you‘re just saying that there just wasn‘t enough evidence, based on what you looked at in the law?
CARLS: I–well, there–it‘s just the family background. I kept asking myself, how–is there any slight possibility that this boy might lie at all? And my answer was yes. So I have to vote not guilty, even if there is a slight possibility.
COSBY: But still in your heart of hearts, you‘re telling me that you believe Michael Jackson is a child molester.
CARLS: Yes. Yes, I do.
COSBY: I want to show a comment, if I could–this is from last night‘s interview–about the jury foreman. Let‘s take a listen to what Ellie and Ray had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOK: He said if I could not change my mind or go with the group or be more understanding, that he would have to notify the bailiff, the bailiff would notify the judge, and the judge would have me removed. I kept my position that I felt Michael was guilty.
COSBY: So if you stuck your guns that Michael Jackson was guilty, the foreman said you‘re going to be kicked off.
COOK: I‘m going to be removed or kicked off, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Mike, were you there and did you hear the foreman–Katharina told us before the show she heard the foreman use that language. Did you hear that?
STEVENS: I didn‘t hear it like that, but what I heard why that was said was because she kept making remarks, and she made several remarks involving her own opinion and the way her heart felt. And when you‘re doing deliberations, you‘re not supposed to have heartfelt ideas or whatever about things, you‘re supposed to follow what the law says and what the evidence shows, not what your heart feels. Am I right?
COSBY: Well, absolutely. You got to look at the evidence and look at the facts, and both of you did, and again, both of you acquitted him, even though Katharina, that‘s a very strong statement you still believe, as you said, that he is a child molester. Very strong stuff. Thank you, both of you, very much. We appreciate you being with us.
And coming up next everyone; What does that mean for Michael Jackson? Does this happen all the time in jury rooms? I‘ll be joined LIVE AND DIRECT by famed legal experts Catherine Crier and Roy Black. And the interview we promised. How does the most famous Hollywood madam earn an honest living these days? Heidi Fleiss will tell us LIVE AND DIRECT coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: From MSNBC world headquarters, here is Rita Cosby.
COSBY: Well, we just heard from two other Jackson jurors, Katharina Carls and also Mike Stevens. Joining us now is criminal defense attorney Roy Black and Court TV news anchor Catherine Crier for reaction.
Catherine, I‘ve got to go to you. First of all, this was pretty stunning, I thought. You know, now we have a third juror who‘s saying, “I believe Michael Jackson is a child molester.”
CATHERINE CRIER, COURT TV NEWS ANCHOR: Absolutely. I think this is pretty disconcerting for someone who spent all these years in the criminal justice system. I‘m very, very uncomfortable with all of these jurors, Rita.
Great interviews on your behalf, but, in fact, these people ought to know–just watch “Law and Order,” for God‘s sake–that you go to the bailiff if there‘s a problem, you go to the judge if there‘s a problem. But the foreman of a jury does not kick anyone off. And for them to basically sell out so easily, I find very troublesome.
COSBY: And Roy, what is your reaction? I mean, you know, first on the issue of Katharina Carls, who we just heard, because she said, “Look, I do think he‘s a child molester, but based on the letter of law,” she at least looked at the things–you know, theoretically looked through the steps and she still said, “That‘s it.”
This was a responsible juror, in that sense, from the letter of the law, correct?
ROY BLACK, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. You have to give her a lot of credit, despite her personal feelings. And I‘m sure what happened, that she thought the earlier testimony from ‘93, ‘94, ‘95 was pretty compelling, but the actual accusations in the case were so weak that it certainly wasn‘t proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So you have to give her credit to be able to sift the good from the bad.
COSBY: Catherine, on the other hand, you know, the two jurors who I did interview yesterday just talked about intense pressure in the jury room. You know, the older lady said this–and, in fact, Katharina Carls confirmed to us, indeed, some of these statements were made.
And what the juror said to me was, “Walk a day in my shoes.” You know, maybe you and I might not have caved, but they said, “How can you say that? You‘re not 79 years old,” you know, “You didn‘t just lose your friend, go in and just be very emotional in the jury room.”
CRIER: I still have a real problem with that. What Roy said is absolutely correct. When I first heard the verdict of the jury–I mean, I understood, having watched all the testimony, that there were real questions about the credibility of the accuser‘s mother, particularly, which reflected on the accuser. And you can understand a not-guilty verdict.
But, in fact, if two or more of the jurors simply, quote, “caved”
because they some how felt intimidated, particularly when you look at Ray -
· I mean, this isn‘t just–and this grandmother did not strike me as some lily-livered soul, when she came out there during the initial jury conference, and said, “Well, you know, that woman was wagging her finger. Don‘t you wag your finger at me, lady.”
She came across as pretty tough. And, in fact, if they somehow, you know, caved because they felt, quote, “intimidated,” then I think that‘s a real blow to the jury system.
COSBY: And what is the lesson for the jury system, Roy? I mean, do you think some people are going to take something away from this and change what they do when they go in the jury room?
BLACK: Well, Rita, I‘m reminded of a statement by Teddy Roosevelt about one of our Supreme Court justices. He said, “That man has a backbone carved out of a banana.” And that‘s what we have with these jurors.
I mean, if they really believed that he was guilty, these threats should not have been enough to change their minds. I‘m going to go to the judge? Well, what‘s wrong with going to the judge? I mean, you should be happy somebody should go to the judge or the bailiff.
Listen, let‘s face it. In almost every jury deliberations, they‘re going to get high-spirited and yelling at times. I mean, that‘s just what happens in a discussion among people. You shouldn‘t cave in if you really have a firm belief in guilt or innocence.
So I‘m sorry, but I‘m not particularly impressed with the integrity of these jurors.
COSBY: Well, Roy Black and Catherine, we thank you both very much, two of the best in the business. Thanks for being with us tonight.
CRIER: You bet.
BLACK: Thank you, Rita.
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