Saturday Today: September 4, 2004
Speaking of more victims:
CAMPBELL BROWN, co-host:
Michael Jackson is reacting to newly uncovered information that back in the early 1990s not one but two boys received multimillion dollar pay-outs from the pop star after coming forward to claim they had been abused by Jackson. The information comes as his lawyers defend him in a current case. Jim Thomas is an NBC analyst and a former Santa Barbara County sheriff. Diane Dimond is chief of Court TV's investigative unit and an NBC News analyst.
Good morning to both of you.
Ms. DIANE DIMOND (NBC News Analyst): Morning.
BROWN: Jim, if I can, let me...
Mr. JIM THOMAS (Former Santa Barbara County Sheriff): Good morning.
BROWN: ...let me start with you. You knew about the second accusation in 1993. What was the situation, and when did you hear about the second payment?
Mr. THOMAS: Well, in 1993--in August of 1993, LAPD actually started a case with the young man that we all know about who settled for the $25 million. And because part of that case took place in Santa Barbara County we were asked to join the investigation. And what we did is we started talking to and interviewing other children who we had thoughts may have also been involved in Michael Jackson. One of those was this second young boy. And he was only the second one who actually admitted that there had been some molestation, although not to the degree of the first boy's molestation.
BROWN: Well, let me...
Mr. THOMAS: I didn't actually learn about the settlement till later.
BROWN: There were--you had eight to 10 kids, I think, on your list, and this was back in--11 years ago. Do you think there are more?
Mr. THOMAS: Correct. Well, I--I could only speculate to that. Personally I believe there is, but I can't prove it. I don't know. I've often been asked, `Why aren't they coming forward?' And I--I would tell your viewers, would they put their children through the scrutiny and the media coverage that these current children are going through? And--and I--I think not many people would. So I think it's going to be almost impossible for us to know how many if other children were ever involved.
BROWN: Jim, you also mentioned in the "Dateline" interview that there were things missing--or you believe there were things missing during the search back in 1993. And do you still think that they...
Mr. THOMAS: Right.
BROWN: ...were tipped off about that search?
Mr. THOMAS: Yes, I do. I think they were in 1993, but they were not in 2003. Because the amount of evidence that was gathered in this current case I think pretty well shows that they did not know that they were coming this time.
BROWN: And do you have any sense of what it is that you didn't find, what you think might have been missing?
Mr. THOMAS: Well, one of the items--and I think it was talked about by the security chief--was the logs that show who actually shows up at Neverland Ranch, which would have helped to corroborate who may have been in--in the--in the house at a particular time. And those, to my knowledge, were never turned over.
BROWN: Diane, let me turn to you.
Ms. DIMOND: Mm-hmm.
BROWN: You're not surprised by the second settlement?
Ms. DIMOND: No, I'm not. I knew about the second settlement. I interviewed the mother of that boy back in 1994--late '93, actually. And she told me an incredible story. She was a maid, and she was encouraged to bring her boy to work by Michael Jackson. And she found them in a sleeping bag together. They had been in the sleeping bag almost all day while she was doing her work. She took her son home, about seven years old, and he said, `I have a secret but I can't tell you. Michael said I can't tell you.' She finally got it out of him that they had been in the sleeping bag all day, and then he pointed to his pocket, and there were $100 bills in his pocket. She was aghast. She thought maybe her son had asked for this money. She--she finally got it out of him that he hadn't asked, Michael had just put $300 in his pocket. And she quit her job shortly after that.
BROWN: You think there are up to 20 kids?
Ms. DIMOND: I had a list of 20 at one time. Some of them were phony, I'll tell you right now. Repressed memory cases...
BROWN: Right.
Ms. DIMOND: ...people who really were trying to extort money. But I can tell you probably 15 or 16. But again, like Jim Thomas says, how do you prove it? These families have clammed up, they don't want to say anything, they don't want to subject themselves--because the parents are under scrutiny, too...
BROWN: Right.
Ms. DIMOND: ...if something did happen. So they--they've kept quiet all these years.
(source: Lexis Nexis)
Speaking of more victims:
CAMPBELL BROWN, co-host:
Michael Jackson is reacting to newly uncovered information that back in the early 1990s not one but two boys received multimillion dollar pay-outs from the pop star after coming forward to claim they had been abused by Jackson. The information comes as his lawyers defend him in a current case. Jim Thomas is an NBC analyst and a former Santa Barbara County sheriff. Diane Dimond is chief of Court TV's investigative unit and an NBC News analyst.
Good morning to both of you.
Ms. DIANE DIMOND (NBC News Analyst): Morning.
BROWN: Jim, if I can, let me...
Mr. JIM THOMAS (Former Santa Barbara County Sheriff): Good morning.
BROWN: ...let me start with you. You knew about the second accusation in 1993. What was the situation, and when did you hear about the second payment?
Mr. THOMAS: Well, in 1993--in August of 1993, LAPD actually started a case with the young man that we all know about who settled for the $25 million. And because part of that case took place in Santa Barbara County we were asked to join the investigation. And what we did is we started talking to and interviewing other children who we had thoughts may have also been involved in Michael Jackson. One of those was this second young boy. And he was only the second one who actually admitted that there had been some molestation, although not to the degree of the first boy's molestation.
BROWN: Well, let me...
Mr. THOMAS: I didn't actually learn about the settlement till later.
BROWN: There were--you had eight to 10 kids, I think, on your list, and this was back in--11 years ago. Do you think there are more?
Mr. THOMAS: Correct. Well, I--I could only speculate to that. Personally I believe there is, but I can't prove it. I don't know. I've often been asked, `Why aren't they coming forward?' And I--I would tell your viewers, would they put their children through the scrutiny and the media coverage that these current children are going through? And--and I--I think not many people would. So I think it's going to be almost impossible for us to know how many if other children were ever involved.
BROWN: Jim, you also mentioned in the "Dateline" interview that there were things missing--or you believe there were things missing during the search back in 1993. And do you still think that they...
Mr. THOMAS: Right.
BROWN: ...were tipped off about that search?
Mr. THOMAS: Yes, I do. I think they were in 1993, but they were not in 2003. Because the amount of evidence that was gathered in this current case I think pretty well shows that they did not know that they were coming this time.
BROWN: And do you have any sense of what it is that you didn't find, what you think might have been missing?
Mr. THOMAS: Well, one of the items--and I think it was talked about by the security chief--was the logs that show who actually shows up at Neverland Ranch, which would have helped to corroborate who may have been in--in the--in the house at a particular time. And those, to my knowledge, were never turned over.
BROWN: Diane, let me turn to you.
Ms. DIMOND: Mm-hmm.
BROWN: You're not surprised by the second settlement?
Ms. DIMOND: No, I'm not. I knew about the second settlement. I interviewed the mother of that boy back in 1994--late '93, actually. And she told me an incredible story. She was a maid, and she was encouraged to bring her boy to work by Michael Jackson. And she found them in a sleeping bag together. They had been in the sleeping bag almost all day while she was doing her work. She took her son home, about seven years old, and he said, `I have a secret but I can't tell you. Michael said I can't tell you.' She finally got it out of him that they had been in the sleeping bag all day, and then he pointed to his pocket, and there were $100 bills in his pocket. She was aghast. She thought maybe her son had asked for this money. She--she finally got it out of him that he hadn't asked, Michael had just put $300 in his pocket. And she quit her job shortly after that.
BROWN: You think there are up to 20 kids?
Ms. DIMOND: I had a list of 20 at one time. Some of them were phony, I'll tell you right now. Repressed memory cases...
BROWN: Right.
Ms. DIMOND: ...people who really were trying to extort money. But I can tell you probably 15 or 16. But again, like Jim Thomas says, how do you prove it? These families have clammed up, they don't want to say anything, they don't want to subject themselves--because the parents are under scrutiny, too...
BROWN: Right.
Ms. DIMOND: ...if something did happen. So they--they've kept quiet all these years.
(source: Lexis Nexis)