'Scarborough Country' for Dec. 29
Read the complete transcript to Monday's showUpdated: 11:28 a.m. ET Dec. 30, 2003
Guests: Jack Burkman, Bob Barr, Allen West, Firpo Carr, Rachel Alexander, Leo Terrell, Lionel
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: Tonight: Michael Jackson takes his case to the public. Plus, the Army mistreats a true American hero.
You‘re about to enter SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. No passport required. No ingrates allowed.
In a national interview, Michael Jackson says he would rather slit his wrists than molest a child. But then he says he won‘t stop sleeping with little boys. Will this public plea by Jackson actually hurt the superstar‘s case? We‘re going to have all the details.
Plus, a hero‘s story. Colonel Allen West scared an Iraqi prisoner into giving up plans for an ambush. He saved American lives, but the Army fined him $5,000. One of America‘s finest soldiers joins us tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is the most dangerous president for America in my lifetime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: And Howard Dean just can‘t keep his foot out of his mouth. He attacks President Bush with no evidence, but is willing to give Osama bin Laden the benefit of the doubt. This is a Democratic front-runner? Oh, boy.
Well, CBS pulled its punches for profit. It‘s time for tonight‘s “Real Deal.”
Last night, we shared one of those media moments that will live on in tabloid TV history, when CBS‘ Ed Bradley interviewed Michael Jackson. Now, of course, there was nothing about the interview itself that smacked of trash TV, other than the fact that it dealt with a pop superstar accused of molesting a young boy. But what did smell to high heaven was the deal that CBS struck to land the interview. Jackson reportedly agreed to sit down with Bradley in return for the network of Murrow and Cronkite agreeing to run Michael‘s TV special that CBS yanked after the child molestation charges hit papers.
Now, at the time, CBS decided it wouldn‘t be appropriate to run a special that starred an accused child abuser. But, just as it was with the Jessica Lynch dust-up earlier this year, it‘s amazing what the promise of a highly-rated interview will do to soften up a conscience or two over at CBS.
It‘s unfortunate, but it‘s tonight‘s “Real Deal.”
Now, this is what Jackson told “60 Minutes”‘ Ed Bradley about having slept with little kids in his bed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, MUSICIAN: Well, what‘s wrong with sharing your bed?
I didn‘t say I slept in the bed. Even if I did sleep in the bed, it‘s OK. I am not going to do anything sexual to a child. That‘s not where my heart is. I would slit my wrists first. I would never do anything like that. That‘s not Michael Jackson. I‘m sorry. That‘s someone else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: And here‘s what Jackson said when asked if he would do it again–quote–“Of course. Why not? If you‘re going to be a pedophile, if you‘re going to be Jack the Ripper, if you‘re going to be a murderer, it‘s not a good idea. That, I‘m not.”
Radio talk show host Lionel, did Michael Jackson hurt or help himself with his “60 Minutes” interview last night?
LIONEL, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I think he helped himself. I really do, because, little by little, bit by bit, he‘s, in a weird way, explaining the possibility that he may be this adult who has had some kind of arrested development.
But did you notice, Joe, how he was equivocal? He said, I didn‘t sleep with a child in bed. I invited him into my bed. That doesn‘t mean that I was with him in bed. I might have been on the floor, but there‘s nothing wrong with having a child in the bed.
At first, I thought, Michael, shut up. But, you know, just hear me out. Maybe, just maybe, he‘s crazy enough to really mean what he says. Maybe that‘s his real deal.
SCARBOROUGH: Lionel, I had the same response the first few minutes I saw it.
LIONEL: Then I changed my mind. Then I changed my mind, Joe. You and I cannot agree.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: I know.
I said, I can‘t believe this guy is dumb enough to say this. But, after watching it, I started thinking, he may actually believe what he‘s saying, that a 45-year-old man can sleep with a little boy and not think it‘s sexual.
LIONEL: But let me explain something.
First of all, it‘s not a 45-year-old man. I‘m 45. I‘m a man. He may be a 45-year-old child. Now, I‘m no expert in psychology, though I play one on TV. But let‘s just assume that, because of his status as a pop star, he never really enjoyed or had the chance to be a child. Let‘s just assume this. And let‘s assume further that anybody who has a putty nose and wears rouge, maybe, in addition to his quirkiness, there‘s this almost innocence that he truly believes in.
And, frankly, I find this thing to be–and I think Geragos is right. This is a shakedown. If your child–and I think Geragos said it best–if your child alleged or claimed that he or she was sexually molested, like Geragos says, out of 175,000 lawyers or whatever there is in California, isn‘t it interesting that the first person the mother allegedly calls is the lawyer who happens to be the lawyer who represented a victim in a similar type of case? Wouldn‘t you call the police?
SCARBOROUGH: Yes, it certainly is a heck of a coincidence.
I want to ask criminal defense attorney Leo Terrell the same question.
Do you think Michael Jackson helped himself last night with this interview or hurt himself?
LEO TERRELL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Let me think about that. He helped himself.
I want to make this as clear as I can, Joe. Michael Jackson doesn‘t hide behind a 7-Eleven and steals kids from the streets. Michael Jackson said last night that he allows children to sleep in his bed. I will submit to you that children sleeping in his bed, in and of itself, does not make him a child molester. And, secondly, no criminal announces his M.O.
You know what? This case is being driven by a few reporters, a few female reporters who I won‘t mention who want to resurrect their career. Michael Jackson helped himself. He said nothing of a criminal nature. And again, no criminal, Joe, announces his modus of operandi, no one.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, of course, Leo, unless that criminal may know that the DA already has that info.
But I want to ask you, Leo, how many 45-year-old men do you know that sleep with 12, 13-year-old boys that aren‘t related to them?
LIONEL: Let me answer that: zero. But does that make it criminal?
I want you and the viewers to tell me. If a boy sleeps in Michael Jackson‘s bed, in and of itself, does that make Michael Jackson a child molester?
SCARBOROUGH: Well, Leo
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: I would submit to you no.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Leo?
TERRELL: What?
SCARBOROUGH: Sleeping in bed, Leo, may not make Michael Jackson a child abuser. But we do know that, in all the cases that go in front of prosecutors, usually, if you have a situation where a 45-year-old man is sleeping with a 12 or 13-year-old boy, usually, that is a good indicator that there is something going on.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: No, hold on, Leo. I‘m not saying Michael Jackson did it. Michael Jackson is an unusual man. Maybe he didn‘t do it. I‘m just saying, at least admit to me that doesn‘t look good for Michael Jackson.
TERRELL: Excuse me. This is the same young boy who was investigated by the Department of Children Services, who said they found nothing. This is a shakedown. And Michael Jackson said over and over again that he slept on the floor. He slept on the floor.
So I want to get clear that people are driving this story. Like I said, there‘s a few female reporters, one who appeared on your “Today Show,” that is trying this story and trying to twist the situation. Michael Jackson said last night he slept on the floor. He is not a child molester based on the statements he made last night on “60 Minutes.”
SCARBOROUGH: OK, let me bring in former assistant attorney general Rachel Alexander.
Rachel, let‘s forget public relations. Let‘s just talk about the case, the legal issues involved here.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Do you believe Michael Jackson helped himself or hurt himself?
RACHEL ALEXANDER, FORMER ASST. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, Joe, I think he did help himself.
But I want to make something clear, first of all. We‘re talking about
· you guys have been talking about whether he‘s innocent or not. And I want to make clear that this is not about whether he‘s innocent or not guilty.
This is all about the legal version, which is whether he is guilty or not guilty, which is a completely different thing. And going...
(CROSSTALK)
ALEXANDER: Well, this is going to be tried in a court of law. Right now, it seems like it‘s being tried in the court of the media, which is not how it‘s actually going to turn out.
The point is, is that there‘s one really bad thing going against Michael Jackson at this point. And that is if this victim comes forward, like the DA has said, and testifies. Because if the victim comes forward and testifies, Michael is probably going to lose.
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: No, that‘s not true. That‘s not true, That‘s not true, because he impeached himself.
(CROSSTALK)
ALEXANDER: He probably will, because...
TERRELL: No, he‘s not. Don‘t say that. Don‘t make that representation.
(CROSSTALK)
ALEXANDER: He has to influence the jury. And if the jury believes that little boy is telling the truth...
TERRELL: Excuse me.
He made an earlier statement to children services and said, Michael Jackson did not molest me.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Let me bring in Firpo Carr for a second.
Firpo Carr, you‘re a Jackson family friend. I‘ve got one question for you. If a good friend of mine were going on “60 Minutes,” I would say to him, Michael, don‘t go out there and try to convince people that a 45-year-old man sleeping with a 12-, 13-year-old boy is a normal thing, in your mind. Why didn‘t anybody stop him from going out there and making that statement?
FIRPO CARR, JACKSON FAMILY FRIEND: Well, first of all, Michael Jackson is just that, Michael Jackson. He‘s a grown man who can think for himself. And what I would like to tell you and everyone else who is listening first is this. He compared, he contrasted himself with Jack the Ripper. This is a terrifying, horrifying, brutalizing, infamous, serial-killing criminal who rips people–who brutalizes, kills, murders all kinds of people, with himself.
He says: I am not that. Now, if I were that, I wouldn‘t, of course -
· or that type of person, I should say, would not sleep with someone–should not–a child should not sleep with that type of person. That‘s what he‘s saying. But I‘m so far removed from that in my innocence that, yes, although I haven‘t done so, I would see no problem with sleeping, not having sex with, sleeping with a child in the same bed, is what he said.
SCARBOROUGH: Right. OK.
CARR: So I think this is all misconstrued.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Lionel, I want to ask you to look at this. Now, Jackson claimed that investigating police trashed Neverland Ranch and they roughed him up when they arrested him in November. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: I won‘t live there ever again. I‘ll visit Neverland. It‘s a house now. It‘s not a home anymore.
They manhandled me very roughly. My shoulder is dislocated, literally. It‘s hurting me very badly. I‘m in pain all the time. You see this arm. This as far as I can reach it. Same with this side over here. If you saw what they did to my arms, it was very bad, what they did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: Lionel, that‘s what Jackson told “60 Minutes.” But here‘s Jackson leaving police custody. He was giving the peace sign with his arm raised high in the air.
Do you think Michael Jackson may be overreaching here a little bit?
LIONEL: Well Joe, believe it or not, when I did criminal defense, more often than that, I hate to say it, though we all love the police, people found that, when they were physically in custody, it was not unpleasant. They always complained that handcuffs were too tight.
The bruise certainly could very well happen. The problem, though, is, this is separate and distinct from the actual trial itself, because this isn‘t going to come up, I don‘t believe. But it is interesting, though, that, after–imagine yourself. You have just–you have just had your shoulder dislocated or harmed or hurt or whatever. I think that pain would be rather immediate.
And I think the last thing I would do after I was injured is to walk out and give the Nixon peace sign, or everything is OK. Somebody suggested today that he was such an athlete, that Michael Jackson is so lithe and in so in incredible shape, notwithstanding his 120 pounds, that it would be like Kobe Bryant, bad example, or Michael Jordan who was harmed. But I think this is just really–it doesn‘t really matter.
The thing I want to say, though, is that what we have to do is understand one thing. I used to always joke sometimes that there are people I know that, if I could sit them in the trial, walk in with no evidence, turn to the jury and say, look at him, you tell me whether he did this or not, especially involving children, it just so happens that, in the panoply of entertainment that we have, there isn‘t anybody, Ozzy Osbourne maybe close second, who just absolutely just inspires this shock and awe, to use a phrase.
And that‘s going to be his biggest impediment. I still go back to the fact that he may be able to explain to this jury that, even though it‘s strange for a 45-year-old man, he‘s an innocent. In addition, when you show prior inconsistent statements of a child recanting, then saying, yes, then going back, you may have the problem of having a psychological expert saying, this is part of the routine, that children oftentimes will change their mind.
I‘m telling you right now, it‘s going to be an acquittal. When the jury hears this, whether they saw “60 Minutes” or not and they see the problems involved with this case, replete with all kinds of financial aspects to it, inconsistent statements, this weird man-child, I‘m sorry, notwithstanding madam, assistant U.S. attorney or whatever, I think they could very well say, I know something went on maybe untoward, maybe weird, maybe strange. But the state did not prove beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt what was alleged to have happened.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Lionel, despite the fact that this case, they haven‘t even picked a jury, they haven‘t even begun discovery, active discovery on this, I think you may be right. It‘s looking more and more that way.
Well, I‘ll tell you what. Coming up, we‘re going to have a lot more on the Michael Jackson case with my panel.
And then, his bravery and quick-thinking saved his comrades from ambush. So why did the Army threaten to court-martial him? We‘re going to be talking to a real American hero, Colonel Allen West.
And, if Howard Dean is the Democrats‘ best hope for 2004, the Republicans may not have that much to worry about. We‘re going to tell you about Dean‘s latest blunder.
And then, a routine traffic stop gone terribly wrong. We‘ll show you what happened to one officer who barely escaped with his life.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: Coming up: Did Ed Bradley throw softballs for Michael Jackson during his interview with the pop star? Was it prearranged? It sure seems like it.
But we‘ll debate it coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: We‘re back.
Right now, a lot of people are asking, is CBS in bed with Michael Jackson? In November, they canceled a Jackson music special, saying it would be appropriate to air it, given that he had been brought up on child molestation charges. But once Jackson agreed to the “60 Minutes” interview, the network rescheduled the program, which is billed as an hour-long tribute to the singer.
Lionel, what do you make of the CBS deal?
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: What‘s that? Lionel?
LIONEL: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: What do you make...
LIONEL: Attention deficit disorder. I‘m sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. What do you make with the deal “60 Minutes” made with Michael Jackson to land that interview?
LIONEL: Well, come on.
I like the way you said, is CBS in bed with Michael Jackson? Who isn‘t in bed with Michael Jackson? Of course. That was a softball, one after another. Of course. Don‘t you think–Michael Jackson is not a stupid guy. Don‘t you think his business associates would have asked Ed Bradley: Don‘t ask him about this. Don‘t ask him about that. Don‘t ask him about the fact that he settled for $20 million or whatever it was for what, for something that never happened? Of course it was a deal.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, Lionel, why didn‘t he ask this question: Did you ever spend time alone with that boy? Why didn‘t they ask, did you ever give the boy alcohol, like the mother alleges?
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Why didn‘t he ask: Did you ever kiss him or touch him inappropriately? I mean, these are basic questions that Ed Bradley never asked, because “60 Minutes” landed this deal, and I think only because Michael Jackson was promised that he could get his musical special out there.
LIONEL: Well, it looks fishy.
But isn‘t it funny, though, isn‘t it interesting how, in this society of ours, we can‘t tell the difference between fame and infamy? This is going to skyrocket his career. What does it take for our country–and remember, we‘ve got to say this. He is alleged to have committed these offense. He‘s not been convicted of anything.
CARR: Thank you.
LIONEL: He‘s innocent. And that‘s true.
But, yes, listen, from a practical point of view, would you negotiate a deal with CBS and say, oh, by the way, I represent Michael Jackson. Ask him anything you want. Let him have it. Use it, so that the prosecutor can roll this tape later on?
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: Hey, hey, can we–let‘s not forget. Michael Jackson is accused of nine charges. He took a chance to go on the air. The DA in Santa Barbara is watching every word he makes. For him to go on the air and make statements, any statements, would be ill-advised.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Leo, do you think that was smart for him to do that? Would you allow a client of yours with these charges that we‘re facing to go on national TV and talk to the press, when it‘s not going to help you at all in court?
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: Excuse me.
I there‘s a general assumption, I don‘t think Michael Jackson hurt himself. If my client, if I felt that my client was totally innocent, I‘ll say go out there and spread the word. Tell everybody you‘re innocent. And, in this case, if he believes he‘s totally innocent, go out there and influence the court of public opinion. Yes, I would. But if there was doubt, I wouldn‘t.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Rachel.
ALEXANDER: You guys are all missing the legal track here. The whole thing is, Michael Jackson is out there. The reason he‘s out there talking to the public is because he knows he has to get to those jurors who are going to be deciding this trial and he has to convince them beyond a reasonable doubt. That‘s all he has to do.
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: The DA hired a public relations firm. The district attorney of Santa Barbara hired a public relations firm. Comment on that! Comment on that!
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Lionel?
LIONEL: Leo, I love you.
Listen, pep it up, Leo. Get off the fence. I want to hear what you feel. I love this guy.
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: Ask her to comment on the fact that the DA hired a public relations firm.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: All right, Lionel.
LIONEL: Here‘s the thing.
I think one of the biggest myths propagated in this country is that jurors are so contaminated by a CBS special. I don‘t want any juror on my jury, whether I‘m the prosecution or the defense, who hasn‘t heard about the Michael Jackson case, because that means they were in a coma. The idea that they‘re going to remember the “60 Minutes” episode, whenever this case comes to trial–God knows how long it‘s going to be–and somehow they‘re going to be so contaminated by it.
What Michael Jackson is doing–and I agree with Leo. How many times have you heard people say, well, if you didn‘t do it, why don‘t you act like it? Michael Jackson has said, look, like it or not–and he‘s winning me over in this. He‘s saying, like it or not, I‘m weird. Look at me. OK, I‘m weird. That‘s not against the law.
(CROSSTALK)
LIONEL: I can share my bed with kids.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Firpo, I want to bring you in and ask you, what is the Jackson family saying about the “60 Minutes” interview? Do they think Michael Jackson helped himself last night? Is the Jackson camp pleased with where this case is going right now at the end of 2003?
CARR: Absolutely.
Michael Jackson‘s family is quite pleased with how he has handled himself, because, first of all, they know, just like the Constitution of the United States guarantees, that this man is innocent until proven guilty. They know he‘s innocent with or without the Constitution.
Also, I might add that when I was there on the 20th of December, a week ago Saturday, I shook Michael‘s hand, gave him–we embraced. And the first thing, the first words out of his mouth were, my back is killing me, from what happened to him when he was brutalized.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: I was going to actually ask you, when he shook your hand, was it a firm shake? Did he move that arm a lot? Did you ever see him lift his arm over his head?
CARR: No, I did not.
SCARBOROUGH: Because he‘s saying he was abused.
(CROSSTALK)
CARR: Get this. Get this. Furthermore, he did not perform that night. From what I understood, someone said that he was supposed to perform that night. He could not because the man is in pain. He‘s not faking. I have to tell you that.
Not only that. As far as these children allegedly sleeping in the same bed with him, Michael Jackson has never said that he has slept with any child in the same bed. What he said is that he shares his bed, much like we might share a tube of toothpaste. No, OK, I‘m going to share that. This doesn‘t mean that we‘re going to use the same exact toothpaste, if you will.
No, he shared it with him. So I think that what we need to do is take a good look at this. And furthermore, I have to get this in. When Michael Jackson tries to go to sleep, goes to bed, when he has children around, guess what? “Oh, Michael, no, don‘t leave us. We want to go with you. We want to go upstairs with you.” He‘s trying to shake them. And he says–and he doesn‘t have the heart to say, no, get away from me.
So what happens is that he shares that and he sleeps there.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: All right, the good thing about being an adult is, you don‘t have to do everything that your kids tell you to do.
I‘m going to give you the last word, Lionel.
LIONEL: Joe, there‘s one question here that–this isn‘t really a
legal question, and it may be irrelevant in terms of the trial. But I want
to ask
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Most of your questions are irrelevant.
(LAUGHTER)
LIONEL: I‘ll be the judge of that.
The thing that I want to ask is simply this. Who are the parents who allow their child or children to spend the night with any 45-year-old man? That‘s really not the subject of this case. But I‘m wondering. He can show–I don‘t know how many kids have stayed with him. But if ever there was any kind of character reference or reputation evidence, whether they recognize or know his reputation in the community for peacefulness, what if he puts about 20 or 30 kids on and their parents and says, he‘s never touched me? He may be strange. I love this guy. He‘s been terrific for me.
What happens if we start hearing this over and over again from people? I‘m telling you, this case is going south. It‘s going bye-bye. And he‘s going to walk.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. Well, Lionel, that‘s exactly what we‘re going to hear. We‘re going to have all of these parents come on. They‘re going to have their kids testify. The parents are going to testify: We‘ve been to Michael‘s house. We spent the night with Michael. We stayed in Michael‘s room. And there‘s been no problem.
Which is fine. I still, though–again, I‘m not saying Michael Jackson is guilty by any means. I don‘t know that and you don‘t know that. But why would any parent allow their child to sleep alone in a room with Michael Jackson after...
LIONEL: But it‘s not that they‘re spending the time with Joe Scarborough. Now, that, I think any parent would allow. But Michael Jackson?
SCARBOROUGH: Well, especially because Michael Jackson, of course, 10 years ago, had the same charges leveled against him. Whether fair or not, just as a juror, you‘ve got to look at the mother‘s judgment right there at the very beginning and say, this lady may not have it all together.
Well, thanks a lot, Lionel, Rachel Alexander, Leo Terrell and Dr.
Firpo Carr. We certainly appreciate you being with us tonight.
[end of Jackson section]
Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3839955/
Read the complete transcript to Monday's showUpdated: 11:28 a.m. ET Dec. 30, 2003
Guests: Jack Burkman, Bob Barr, Allen West, Firpo Carr, Rachel Alexander, Leo Terrell, Lionel
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: Tonight: Michael Jackson takes his case to the public. Plus, the Army mistreats a true American hero.
You‘re about to enter SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. No passport required. No ingrates allowed.
In a national interview, Michael Jackson says he would rather slit his wrists than molest a child. But then he says he won‘t stop sleeping with little boys. Will this public plea by Jackson actually hurt the superstar‘s case? We‘re going to have all the details.
Plus, a hero‘s story. Colonel Allen West scared an Iraqi prisoner into giving up plans for an ambush. He saved American lives, but the Army fined him $5,000. One of America‘s finest soldiers joins us tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is the most dangerous president for America in my lifetime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: And Howard Dean just can‘t keep his foot out of his mouth. He attacks President Bush with no evidence, but is willing to give Osama bin Laden the benefit of the doubt. This is a Democratic front-runner? Oh, boy.
Well, CBS pulled its punches for profit. It‘s time for tonight‘s “Real Deal.”
Last night, we shared one of those media moments that will live on in tabloid TV history, when CBS‘ Ed Bradley interviewed Michael Jackson. Now, of course, there was nothing about the interview itself that smacked of trash TV, other than the fact that it dealt with a pop superstar accused of molesting a young boy. But what did smell to high heaven was the deal that CBS struck to land the interview. Jackson reportedly agreed to sit down with Bradley in return for the network of Murrow and Cronkite agreeing to run Michael‘s TV special that CBS yanked after the child molestation charges hit papers.
Now, at the time, CBS decided it wouldn‘t be appropriate to run a special that starred an accused child abuser. But, just as it was with the Jessica Lynch dust-up earlier this year, it‘s amazing what the promise of a highly-rated interview will do to soften up a conscience or two over at CBS.
It‘s unfortunate, but it‘s tonight‘s “Real Deal.”
Now, this is what Jackson told “60 Minutes”‘ Ed Bradley about having slept with little kids in his bed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, MUSICIAN: Well, what‘s wrong with sharing your bed?
I didn‘t say I slept in the bed. Even if I did sleep in the bed, it‘s OK. I am not going to do anything sexual to a child. That‘s not where my heart is. I would slit my wrists first. I would never do anything like that. That‘s not Michael Jackson. I‘m sorry. That‘s someone else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: And here‘s what Jackson said when asked if he would do it again–quote–“Of course. Why not? If you‘re going to be a pedophile, if you‘re going to be Jack the Ripper, if you‘re going to be a murderer, it‘s not a good idea. That, I‘m not.”
Radio talk show host Lionel, did Michael Jackson hurt or help himself with his “60 Minutes” interview last night?
LIONEL, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I think he helped himself. I really do, because, little by little, bit by bit, he‘s, in a weird way, explaining the possibility that he may be this adult who has had some kind of arrested development.
But did you notice, Joe, how he was equivocal? He said, I didn‘t sleep with a child in bed. I invited him into my bed. That doesn‘t mean that I was with him in bed. I might have been on the floor, but there‘s nothing wrong with having a child in the bed.
At first, I thought, Michael, shut up. But, you know, just hear me out. Maybe, just maybe, he‘s crazy enough to really mean what he says. Maybe that‘s his real deal.
SCARBOROUGH: Lionel, I had the same response the first few minutes I saw it.
LIONEL: Then I changed my mind. Then I changed my mind, Joe. You and I cannot agree.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: I know.
I said, I can‘t believe this guy is dumb enough to say this. But, after watching it, I started thinking, he may actually believe what he‘s saying, that a 45-year-old man can sleep with a little boy and not think it‘s sexual.
LIONEL: But let me explain something.
First of all, it‘s not a 45-year-old man. I‘m 45. I‘m a man. He may be a 45-year-old child. Now, I‘m no expert in psychology, though I play one on TV. But let‘s just assume that, because of his status as a pop star, he never really enjoyed or had the chance to be a child. Let‘s just assume this. And let‘s assume further that anybody who has a putty nose and wears rouge, maybe, in addition to his quirkiness, there‘s this almost innocence that he truly believes in.
And, frankly, I find this thing to be–and I think Geragos is right. This is a shakedown. If your child–and I think Geragos said it best–if your child alleged or claimed that he or she was sexually molested, like Geragos says, out of 175,000 lawyers or whatever there is in California, isn‘t it interesting that the first person the mother allegedly calls is the lawyer who happens to be the lawyer who represented a victim in a similar type of case? Wouldn‘t you call the police?
SCARBOROUGH: Yes, it certainly is a heck of a coincidence.
I want to ask criminal defense attorney Leo Terrell the same question.
Do you think Michael Jackson helped himself last night with this interview or hurt himself?
LEO TERRELL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Let me think about that. He helped himself.
I want to make this as clear as I can, Joe. Michael Jackson doesn‘t hide behind a 7-Eleven and steals kids from the streets. Michael Jackson said last night that he allows children to sleep in his bed. I will submit to you that children sleeping in his bed, in and of itself, does not make him a child molester. And, secondly, no criminal announces his M.O.
You know what? This case is being driven by a few reporters, a few female reporters who I won‘t mention who want to resurrect their career. Michael Jackson helped himself. He said nothing of a criminal nature. And again, no criminal, Joe, announces his modus of operandi, no one.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, of course, Leo, unless that criminal may know that the DA already has that info.
But I want to ask you, Leo, how many 45-year-old men do you know that sleep with 12, 13-year-old boys that aren‘t related to them?
LIONEL: Let me answer that: zero. But does that make it criminal?
I want you and the viewers to tell me. If a boy sleeps in Michael Jackson‘s bed, in and of itself, does that make Michael Jackson a child molester?
SCARBOROUGH: Well, Leo
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: I would submit to you no.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Leo?
TERRELL: What?
SCARBOROUGH: Sleeping in bed, Leo, may not make Michael Jackson a child abuser. But we do know that, in all the cases that go in front of prosecutors, usually, if you have a situation where a 45-year-old man is sleeping with a 12 or 13-year-old boy, usually, that is a good indicator that there is something going on.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: No, hold on, Leo. I‘m not saying Michael Jackson did it. Michael Jackson is an unusual man. Maybe he didn‘t do it. I‘m just saying, at least admit to me that doesn‘t look good for Michael Jackson.
TERRELL: Excuse me. This is the same young boy who was investigated by the Department of Children Services, who said they found nothing. This is a shakedown. And Michael Jackson said over and over again that he slept on the floor. He slept on the floor.
So I want to get clear that people are driving this story. Like I said, there‘s a few female reporters, one who appeared on your “Today Show,” that is trying this story and trying to twist the situation. Michael Jackson said last night he slept on the floor. He is not a child molester based on the statements he made last night on “60 Minutes.”
SCARBOROUGH: OK, let me bring in former assistant attorney general Rachel Alexander.
Rachel, let‘s forget public relations. Let‘s just talk about the case, the legal issues involved here.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Do you believe Michael Jackson helped himself or hurt himself?
RACHEL ALEXANDER, FORMER ASST. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, Joe, I think he did help himself.
But I want to make something clear, first of all. We‘re talking about
· you guys have been talking about whether he‘s innocent or not. And I want to make clear that this is not about whether he‘s innocent or not guilty.
This is all about the legal version, which is whether he is guilty or not guilty, which is a completely different thing. And going...
(CROSSTALK)
ALEXANDER: Well, this is going to be tried in a court of law. Right now, it seems like it‘s being tried in the court of the media, which is not how it‘s actually going to turn out.
The point is, is that there‘s one really bad thing going against Michael Jackson at this point. And that is if this victim comes forward, like the DA has said, and testifies. Because if the victim comes forward and testifies, Michael is probably going to lose.
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: No, that‘s not true. That‘s not true, That‘s not true, because he impeached himself.
(CROSSTALK)
ALEXANDER: He probably will, because...
TERRELL: No, he‘s not. Don‘t say that. Don‘t make that representation.
(CROSSTALK)
ALEXANDER: He has to influence the jury. And if the jury believes that little boy is telling the truth...
TERRELL: Excuse me.
He made an earlier statement to children services and said, Michael Jackson did not molest me.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Let me bring in Firpo Carr for a second.
Firpo Carr, you‘re a Jackson family friend. I‘ve got one question for you. If a good friend of mine were going on “60 Minutes,” I would say to him, Michael, don‘t go out there and try to convince people that a 45-year-old man sleeping with a 12-, 13-year-old boy is a normal thing, in your mind. Why didn‘t anybody stop him from going out there and making that statement?
FIRPO CARR, JACKSON FAMILY FRIEND: Well, first of all, Michael Jackson is just that, Michael Jackson. He‘s a grown man who can think for himself. And what I would like to tell you and everyone else who is listening first is this. He compared, he contrasted himself with Jack the Ripper. This is a terrifying, horrifying, brutalizing, infamous, serial-killing criminal who rips people–who brutalizes, kills, murders all kinds of people, with himself.
He says: I am not that. Now, if I were that, I wouldn‘t, of course -
· or that type of person, I should say, would not sleep with someone–should not–a child should not sleep with that type of person. That‘s what he‘s saying. But I‘m so far removed from that in my innocence that, yes, although I haven‘t done so, I would see no problem with sleeping, not having sex with, sleeping with a child in the same bed, is what he said.
SCARBOROUGH: Right. OK.
CARR: So I think this is all misconstrued.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Lionel, I want to ask you to look at this. Now, Jackson claimed that investigating police trashed Neverland Ranch and they roughed him up when they arrested him in November. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: I won‘t live there ever again. I‘ll visit Neverland. It‘s a house now. It‘s not a home anymore.
They manhandled me very roughly. My shoulder is dislocated, literally. It‘s hurting me very badly. I‘m in pain all the time. You see this arm. This as far as I can reach it. Same with this side over here. If you saw what they did to my arms, it was very bad, what they did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: Lionel, that‘s what Jackson told “60 Minutes.” But here‘s Jackson leaving police custody. He was giving the peace sign with his arm raised high in the air.
Do you think Michael Jackson may be overreaching here a little bit?
LIONEL: Well Joe, believe it or not, when I did criminal defense, more often than that, I hate to say it, though we all love the police, people found that, when they were physically in custody, it was not unpleasant. They always complained that handcuffs were too tight.
The bruise certainly could very well happen. The problem, though, is, this is separate and distinct from the actual trial itself, because this isn‘t going to come up, I don‘t believe. But it is interesting, though, that, after–imagine yourself. You have just–you have just had your shoulder dislocated or harmed or hurt or whatever. I think that pain would be rather immediate.
And I think the last thing I would do after I was injured is to walk out and give the Nixon peace sign, or everything is OK. Somebody suggested today that he was such an athlete, that Michael Jackson is so lithe and in so in incredible shape, notwithstanding his 120 pounds, that it would be like Kobe Bryant, bad example, or Michael Jordan who was harmed. But I think this is just really–it doesn‘t really matter.
The thing I want to say, though, is that what we have to do is understand one thing. I used to always joke sometimes that there are people I know that, if I could sit them in the trial, walk in with no evidence, turn to the jury and say, look at him, you tell me whether he did this or not, especially involving children, it just so happens that, in the panoply of entertainment that we have, there isn‘t anybody, Ozzy Osbourne maybe close second, who just absolutely just inspires this shock and awe, to use a phrase.
And that‘s going to be his biggest impediment. I still go back to the fact that he may be able to explain to this jury that, even though it‘s strange for a 45-year-old man, he‘s an innocent. In addition, when you show prior inconsistent statements of a child recanting, then saying, yes, then going back, you may have the problem of having a psychological expert saying, this is part of the routine, that children oftentimes will change their mind.
I‘m telling you right now, it‘s going to be an acquittal. When the jury hears this, whether they saw “60 Minutes” or not and they see the problems involved with this case, replete with all kinds of financial aspects to it, inconsistent statements, this weird man-child, I‘m sorry, notwithstanding madam, assistant U.S. attorney or whatever, I think they could very well say, I know something went on maybe untoward, maybe weird, maybe strange. But the state did not prove beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt what was alleged to have happened.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Lionel, despite the fact that this case, they haven‘t even picked a jury, they haven‘t even begun discovery, active discovery on this, I think you may be right. It‘s looking more and more that way.
Well, I‘ll tell you what. Coming up, we‘re going to have a lot more on the Michael Jackson case with my panel.
And then, his bravery and quick-thinking saved his comrades from ambush. So why did the Army threaten to court-martial him? We‘re going to be talking to a real American hero, Colonel Allen West.
And, if Howard Dean is the Democrats‘ best hope for 2004, the Republicans may not have that much to worry about. We‘re going to tell you about Dean‘s latest blunder.
And then, a routine traffic stop gone terribly wrong. We‘ll show you what happened to one officer who barely escaped with his life.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: Coming up: Did Ed Bradley throw softballs for Michael Jackson during his interview with the pop star? Was it prearranged? It sure seems like it.
But we‘ll debate it coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCARBOROUGH: We‘re back.
Right now, a lot of people are asking, is CBS in bed with Michael Jackson? In November, they canceled a Jackson music special, saying it would be appropriate to air it, given that he had been brought up on child molestation charges. But once Jackson agreed to the “60 Minutes” interview, the network rescheduled the program, which is billed as an hour-long tribute to the singer.
Lionel, what do you make of the CBS deal?
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: What‘s that? Lionel?
LIONEL: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: What do you make...
LIONEL: Attention deficit disorder. I‘m sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. What do you make with the deal “60 Minutes” made with Michael Jackson to land that interview?
LIONEL: Well, come on.
I like the way you said, is CBS in bed with Michael Jackson? Who isn‘t in bed with Michael Jackson? Of course. That was a softball, one after another. Of course. Don‘t you think–Michael Jackson is not a stupid guy. Don‘t you think his business associates would have asked Ed Bradley: Don‘t ask him about this. Don‘t ask him about that. Don‘t ask him about the fact that he settled for $20 million or whatever it was for what, for something that never happened? Of course it was a deal.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, Lionel, why didn‘t he ask this question: Did you ever spend time alone with that boy? Why didn‘t they ask, did you ever give the boy alcohol, like the mother alleges?
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Why didn‘t he ask: Did you ever kiss him or touch him inappropriately? I mean, these are basic questions that Ed Bradley never asked, because “60 Minutes” landed this deal, and I think only because Michael Jackson was promised that he could get his musical special out there.
LIONEL: Well, it looks fishy.
But isn‘t it funny, though, isn‘t it interesting how, in this society of ours, we can‘t tell the difference between fame and infamy? This is going to skyrocket his career. What does it take for our country–and remember, we‘ve got to say this. He is alleged to have committed these offense. He‘s not been convicted of anything.
CARR: Thank you.
LIONEL: He‘s innocent. And that‘s true.
But, yes, listen, from a practical point of view, would you negotiate a deal with CBS and say, oh, by the way, I represent Michael Jackson. Ask him anything you want. Let him have it. Use it, so that the prosecutor can roll this tape later on?
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: Hey, hey, can we–let‘s not forget. Michael Jackson is accused of nine charges. He took a chance to go on the air. The DA in Santa Barbara is watching every word he makes. For him to go on the air and make statements, any statements, would be ill-advised.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Leo, do you think that was smart for him to do that? Would you allow a client of yours with these charges that we‘re facing to go on national TV and talk to the press, when it‘s not going to help you at all in court?
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: Excuse me.
I there‘s a general assumption, I don‘t think Michael Jackson hurt himself. If my client, if I felt that my client was totally innocent, I‘ll say go out there and spread the word. Tell everybody you‘re innocent. And, in this case, if he believes he‘s totally innocent, go out there and influence the court of public opinion. Yes, I would. But if there was doubt, I wouldn‘t.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Rachel.
ALEXANDER: You guys are all missing the legal track here. The whole thing is, Michael Jackson is out there. The reason he‘s out there talking to the public is because he knows he has to get to those jurors who are going to be deciding this trial and he has to convince them beyond a reasonable doubt. That‘s all he has to do.
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: The DA hired a public relations firm. The district attorney of Santa Barbara hired a public relations firm. Comment on that! Comment on that!
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Lionel?
LIONEL: Leo, I love you.
Listen, pep it up, Leo. Get off the fence. I want to hear what you feel. I love this guy.
(CROSSTALK)
TERRELL: Ask her to comment on the fact that the DA hired a public relations firm.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: All right, Lionel.
LIONEL: Here‘s the thing.
I think one of the biggest myths propagated in this country is that jurors are so contaminated by a CBS special. I don‘t want any juror on my jury, whether I‘m the prosecution or the defense, who hasn‘t heard about the Michael Jackson case, because that means they were in a coma. The idea that they‘re going to remember the “60 Minutes” episode, whenever this case comes to trial–God knows how long it‘s going to be–and somehow they‘re going to be so contaminated by it.
What Michael Jackson is doing–and I agree with Leo. How many times have you heard people say, well, if you didn‘t do it, why don‘t you act like it? Michael Jackson has said, look, like it or not–and he‘s winning me over in this. He‘s saying, like it or not, I‘m weird. Look at me. OK, I‘m weird. That‘s not against the law.
(CROSSTALK)
LIONEL: I can share my bed with kids.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Firpo, I want to bring you in and ask you, what is the Jackson family saying about the “60 Minutes” interview? Do they think Michael Jackson helped himself last night? Is the Jackson camp pleased with where this case is going right now at the end of 2003?
CARR: Absolutely.
Michael Jackson‘s family is quite pleased with how he has handled himself, because, first of all, they know, just like the Constitution of the United States guarantees, that this man is innocent until proven guilty. They know he‘s innocent with or without the Constitution.
Also, I might add that when I was there on the 20th of December, a week ago Saturday, I shook Michael‘s hand, gave him–we embraced. And the first thing, the first words out of his mouth were, my back is killing me, from what happened to him when he was brutalized.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: I was going to actually ask you, when he shook your hand, was it a firm shake? Did he move that arm a lot? Did you ever see him lift his arm over his head?
CARR: No, I did not.
SCARBOROUGH: Because he‘s saying he was abused.
(CROSSTALK)
CARR: Get this. Get this. Furthermore, he did not perform that night. From what I understood, someone said that he was supposed to perform that night. He could not because the man is in pain. He‘s not faking. I have to tell you that.
Not only that. As far as these children allegedly sleeping in the same bed with him, Michael Jackson has never said that he has slept with any child in the same bed. What he said is that he shares his bed, much like we might share a tube of toothpaste. No, OK, I‘m going to share that. This doesn‘t mean that we‘re going to use the same exact toothpaste, if you will.
No, he shared it with him. So I think that what we need to do is take a good look at this. And furthermore, I have to get this in. When Michael Jackson tries to go to sleep, goes to bed, when he has children around, guess what? “Oh, Michael, no, don‘t leave us. We want to go with you. We want to go upstairs with you.” He‘s trying to shake them. And he says–and he doesn‘t have the heart to say, no, get away from me.
So what happens is that he shares that and he sleeps there.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: All right, the good thing about being an adult is, you don‘t have to do everything that your kids tell you to do.
I‘m going to give you the last word, Lionel.
LIONEL: Joe, there‘s one question here that–this isn‘t really a
legal question, and it may be irrelevant in terms of the trial. But I want
to ask
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Most of your questions are irrelevant.
(LAUGHTER)
LIONEL: I‘ll be the judge of that.
The thing that I want to ask is simply this. Who are the parents who allow their child or children to spend the night with any 45-year-old man? That‘s really not the subject of this case. But I‘m wondering. He can show–I don‘t know how many kids have stayed with him. But if ever there was any kind of character reference or reputation evidence, whether they recognize or know his reputation in the community for peacefulness, what if he puts about 20 or 30 kids on and their parents and says, he‘s never touched me? He may be strange. I love this guy. He‘s been terrific for me.
What happens if we start hearing this over and over again from people? I‘m telling you, this case is going south. It‘s going bye-bye. And he‘s going to walk.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. Well, Lionel, that‘s exactly what we‘re going to hear. We‘re going to have all of these parents come on. They‘re going to have their kids testify. The parents are going to testify: We‘ve been to Michael‘s house. We spent the night with Michael. We stayed in Michael‘s room. And there‘s been no problem.
Which is fine. I still, though–again, I‘m not saying Michael Jackson is guilty by any means. I don‘t know that and you don‘t know that. But why would any parent allow their child to sleep alone in a room with Michael Jackson after...
LIONEL: But it‘s not that they‘re spending the time with Joe Scarborough. Now, that, I think any parent would allow. But Michael Jackson?
SCARBOROUGH: Well, especially because Michael Jackson, of course, 10 years ago, had the same charges leveled against him. Whether fair or not, just as a juror, you‘ve got to look at the mother‘s judgment right there at the very beginning and say, this lady may not have it all together.
Well, thanks a lot, Lionel, Rachel Alexander, Leo Terrell and Dr.
Firpo Carr. We certainly appreciate you being with us tonight.
[end of Jackson section]
Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3839955/