Did Michael see a mental health expert/psychologist?

[uranusbluedanger1]

I felt like randomly popping in to read a little and then I ended up having a few thoughts to share...

Reafu, (sorry, this school computer is being weird and won't let me click quote) I was reading your comments and I immediately began to think of how easy it is to sometimes defend actions and ideas of people we feel like we have a connection to, etc, and I began to evaluate my own thoughts... Really, I think there is a difference between recreating the past and trying to create a past. When you play video games, when I watch Disney movies and play swordfight with my cousin, I'm reliving something that happened... I'm recreating an emotion that brings me comfort. But by no means am I trying to create a childhood. I had one, I had a past, and that past helped to shape my identity. The way I see it, the truth is sad, and that is that not having a childhood does not inherently mean someone didn't have a past, but this, I feel from seeing how much importance Michael gave to the idea of childhood, might have meant that Michael felt his identity was incomplete. He was missing something, and it's the eternal question of the what if: would I like myself better, would I have more friends, would I... if I had had it... Just think guys. How many of you are still tight frieds with your childish crue. *raises hand* I am. These people were my friends before a lot of things... Maybe he really thought that he could have had better friends, he could have felt better about things, who knows... So, while I get your point. I don't see it the same way. And as far as feeling more comfortable with children? I agree, I feel more comfortable with people under and above my age group or with other gifted kids. It's a preference. What does worry me is when a person makes a statement repeatedly that they'd rather stop living if children did not exist... and you know why? It speaks of a lack of resistence, which can come from many things. Because Michael is such a resilient person, that quote, and it being repeated over and over again, goes against his character... it raises red flags.


Anyway, the more I think about people around him and people asking him to seek professional help, the more I immediately begin to think of cognitive dissonance. Any psychology majors or people interested i psychology out there? It refers to an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding contradictory ideas. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, the awareness of one's behavior, and facts. "The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors." This is actually also used in political science to explain irrational actions by heads of state, etc. Why is it that even though people see a problem, they don't act on it? I think it would be harsh to judge the family because that is to assume they saw the problem directly, recognized it and knew how to deal with it. Not all people know how to any of the three above, and sometimes recognition is the most important. So, what if they saw it, but only in a glimpse, and in an act of cognitive dissonance, because the view went again a resilient, strong Michael, against the idea of an innocent, isolated kind man, whatever idea they had of him.... they probably simply justified it and the uncomfortable feeling of the two differing thoughts left. That's what I thought of while reading Reafu's post... really, we can find many explanations for thngs. And maybe even now we might be reading too much into it. But just think how difficult it might be to recognize these things. Hindsight bias does the person who needed help no good at all... but it feels almost shameful to point the finger at the family, at those close to him, because I can't assume they really saw it and recognized it.

Anyway, just bringing in a few psychology terms and adding my ideas. Thanks everyone for providing such amazing responses... I'll certainly be thinking about this...

 

[craze4mj]

Anyway, the more I think about people around him and people asking him to seek professional help, the more I immediately begin to think of cognitive dissonance. Any psychology majors or people interested i psychology out there? It refers to an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding contradictory ideas. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, the awareness of one's behavior, and facts. "The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors."

I'm glad you brought that up...the way i saw michael had a little to do with freud and his theory of defense mechanisms...one being regression - where someone is under great amounts of stress and by dealing with it they revert to an earlier time when times were much easier...but if you think about it michael nvr had an easier time to go back to so he surrounded himself with ppl that would baby him.....which is exactly what Frank Tyson said was on of his faults during the trials with catherine crier if you remember that.

the second is compensation- i feel -this is my opinion ofcourse- that because of all his insecurities, his anger with his upbringing and all that he bacame a perfectionist...his idea that he was ugly, and all that he tried making up for with his talent...again this is my opinion but i feel he saw his music and dance as what he could offer the world and later in life when ppl began downplaying his music the more insecure he got....i dont know if any of that makes sense to you..but i really do believe the things he did was his way of trying to get compliments and love from ppl around him, (his dad, fans)


the reason i think he was so into helping children and reaching out to them was bcuz he didnt want another child growing up not feeling loved and end up living a life like his wondering why your parent didnt show you love and have to ask the 'what if it was different?' questions... he truly thought that he could teach all children not to hate and to be colorblind...bcuz if you do that then most of our problems today would no longer exist...its unrealistic i know but everytime i think about it i think of his song HIStory where at the end he had a quote sayin "some men see things as they are and say'why?' i dream things that never were and say 'why not?'

 

[candles]

I felt like randomly popping in to read a little and then I ended up having a few thoughts to share...

Reafu, (sorry, this school computer is being weird and won't let me click quote) I was reading your comments and I immediately began to think of how easy it is to sometimes defend actions and ideas of people we feel like we have a connection to, etc, and I began to evaluate my own thoughts... Really, I think there is a difference between recreating the past and trying to create a past. When you play video games, when I watch Disney movies and play swordfight with my cousin, I'm reliving something that happened... I'm recreating an emotion that brings me comfort. But by no means am I trying to create a childhood. I had one, I had a past, and that past helped to shape my identity. The way I see it, the truth is sad, and that is that not having a childhood does not inherently mean someone didn't have a past, but this, I feel from seeing how much importance Michael gave to the idea of childhood, might have meant that Michael felt his identity was incomplete. He was missing something, and it's the eternal question of the what if: would I like myself better, would I have more friends, would I... if I had had it... Just think guys. How many of you are still tight frieds with your childish crue. *raises hand* I am. These people were my friends before a lot of things... Maybe he really thought that he could have had better friends, he could have felt better about things, who knows... So, while I get your point. I don't see it the same way. And as far as feeling more comfortable with children? I agree, I feel more comfortable with people under and above my age group or with other gifted kids. It's a preference. What does worry me is when a person makes a statement repeatedly that they'd rather stop living if children did not exist... and you know why? It speaks of a lack of resistence, which can come from many things. Because Michael is such a resilient person, that quote, and it being repeated over and over again, goes against his character... it raises red flags.


Anyway, the more I think about people around him and people asking him to seek professional help, the more I immediately begin to think of cognitive dissonance. Any psychology majors or people interested i psychology out there? It refers to an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding contradictory ideas. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, the awareness of one's behavior, and facts. "The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors." This is actually also used in political science to explain irrational actions by heads of state, etc. Why is it that even though people see a problem, they don't act on it? I think it would be harsh to judge the family because that is to assume they saw the problem directly, recognized it and knew how to deal with it. Not all people know how to any of the three above, and sometimes recognition is the most important. So, what if they saw it, but only in a glimpse, and in an act of cognitive dissonance, because the view went again a resilient, strong Michael, against the idea of an innocent, isolated kind man, whatever idea they had of him.... they probably simply justified it and the uncomfortable feeling of the two differing thoughts left. That's what I thought of while reading Reafu's post... really, we can find many explanations for thngs. And maybe even now we might be reading too much into it. But just think how difficult it might be to recognize these things. Hindsight bias does the person who needed help no good at all... but it feels almost shameful to point the finger at the family, at those close to him, because I can't assume they really saw it and recognized it.

Anyway, just bringing in a few psychology terms and adding my ideas. Thanks everyone for providing such amazing responses... I'll certainly be thinking about this...

you have really pointed out some very good points that i'm left speechless. i was interested in psychology at some point and i really like how you defined your thoughts.

I'll have to come back and coment on this after some more thought cause my mind is all jumbled up right now lol

the second is compensation- i feel -this is my opinion ofcourse- that because of all his insecurities, his anger with his upbringing and all that he bacame a perfectionist...his idea that he was ugly, and all that he tried making up for with his talent...again this is my opinion but i feel he saw his music and dance as what he could offer the world and later in life when ppl began downplaying his music the more insecure he got....i dont know if any of that makes sense to you..but i really do believe the things he did was his way of trying to get compliments and love from ppl around him, (his dad, fans)

I do understand what you are saying because I have gone through the same thing. When people claim you are 'gifted' in one area and maybe lacking in others and you aren't used to people relating anything to you other than what your 'gift', and you feel different and unloved, you search for love and when you see that people are amazed by this 'gift' you hold on to it. It becomes your lifeline. It becomes your escapism and it's sad because people sometimes wont want anything else from you, or maybe you don't know how to give anything else of yourself. Once the adulation goes and people aren't checking for you anymore, it becomes something of a crisis. I've been there, and it's a dark place to be because you wonder what else is there for you. You wonder if you are worth anything else, anything more. I do remember when I maximized on this 'thing' people claimed i was gifted at, I kept trying to get better and better at it, hoping people would like me more. Hoping it would help me keep friendships only to realize that people were only concerned with what they could get from me, not me as a person. And after I became very very sick a year ago, I realized that being number one and being the best is not worth it if you're not doing it for yourself. Sometimes it's not worth it at all. By the grace of God at least I have a very loving mother who stuck with me when I was sick, and being sick made me realize that it's okay to not be the best, to not be everyone's best friend or have everyone love you. And I can understand why he did get more insecure when people were downplaying his music, because after a while when people got bored of my gift or just kept telling me...even honestly...that i wasn't as good as i used to be, i went through a crisis wondering where i will get love from (which i connected to being told that my work was the best)

I was at least able to find peace in other places, but it must have been difficult for Michael. Did he really have anywhere to go? Where could he go?

the reason i think he was so into helping children and reaching out to them was bcuz he didnt want another child growing up not feeling loved and end up living a life like his wondering why your parent didnt show you love and have to ask the 'what if it was different?' questions... he truly thought that he could teach all children not to hate and to be colorblind...bcuz if you do that then most of our problems today would no longer exist'

yeah I do believe that was a part of it. I think another part was to get away from constantly being judged, used, having to be Michael Jackson the Great instead of Michael Jackson the person.

(hehe sorry for giving my life story!)

 

[uranusbluedanger1]

I do understand what you are saying because I have gone through the same thing. When people claim you are 'gifted' in one area and maybe lacking in others and you aren't used to people relating anything to you other than what your 'gift', and you feel different and unloved, you search for love and when you see that people are amazed by this 'gift' you hold on to it. It becomes your lifeline. It becomes your escapism and it's sad because people sometimes wont want anything else from you, or maybe you don't know how to give anything else of yourself. Once the adulation goes and people aren't checking for you anymore, it becomes something of a crisis. I've been there, and it's a dark place to be because you wonder what else is there for you. You wonder if you are worth anything else, anything more. I do remember when I maximized on this 'thing' people claimed i was gifted at, I kept trying to get better and better at it, hoping people would like me more. Hoping it would help me keep friendships only to realize that people were only concerned with what they could get from me, not me as a person. And after I became very very sick a year ago, I realized that being number one and being the best is not worth it if you're not doing it for yourself. Sometimes it's not worth it at all. By the grace of God at least I have a very loving mother who stuck with me when I was sick, and being sick made me realize that it's okay to not be the best, to not be everyone's best friend or have everyone love you. And I can understand why he did get more insecure when people were downplaying his music, because after a while when people got bored of my gift or just kept telling me...even honestly...that i wasn't as good as i used to be, i went through a crisis wondering where i will get love from (which i connected to being told that my work was the best)

(hehe sorry for giving my life story!)

Don't be sorry for giving your life story. It fits quite well. And as I read it, I felt like I was reading something I might have written myself...I can actually relate to this very much (if not in everything except getting sick, though I was sick early in life and that kind of fueled my thought process)... but I will have to commet on this more in-depth later (though probably without my personal life in it because I don't want to bore people :lol) and what I was thinking about as I read it as far as psychology goes...

 

[HeavenSent]

Sandra? Carol? Thank you. I swear I love you guys on this board because your candidness is so refreshing and I find myself learning more about MYSELF for it. It's about Michael, but it's also about us.

 

[uranusbluedanger1]

Sandra? Carol? Thank you. I swear I love you guys on this board because your candidness is so refreshing and I find myself learning more about MYSELF for it. It's about Michael, but it's also about us.

I agree. It's about Michael, but about ourselves as well. I think it was my mother who once told me that it is people who are seeking to find themselves that venture into psychology... and I remember feeling slightly offended when she said it, but as my journey through the field continued, i began to see she was totally right and I saw what she meant. And I tell you, I feel I am a better person as I come to accept things about myself... I've been lucky enough to have had a mother who recognized my worth, telling me everyday, "I love you. And I want you to know that to me, your greatest accomplishment will always be just existing. You don't need to do anything else." It reminds me of how Michael told his children he loved them everyday, how he told people he loved them everyday... not because he was seeking to get validation back, but because he knew what it was like to need validation without any other strings attached. 'I love you, for being you...' And sometimes, sadly, we don't have others to say that to us... so we have to learn to say it to ouselves... and that can be so hard, so hard for a perfectionist.

I was lucky to find a mentor, my gifted-ed teacher, who sat me down and told me, "to be a perfectionist is not bad. to fear failure is..." and as I ventured deeper into my own psychology, I came to understand one thing: to not fail would be to fail anyway because we grow from our mistakes. But I suppose that's no longer related... But I certainly learn so much from the people in this board, and I am so thankful for it... really.

 

[craze4mj]

I think it was my mother who once told me that it is people who are seeking to find themselves that venture into psychology...

QUOTE]

its so TRUE!!! lol i'm in the same field and sometimes i'll learn new things and i apply it to my life and michael's.... i sound crazy i know thats why im in psych so i can figure out whats wrong with me

but do you guys ever feel that Michael was the collection of everyone's insecurities..as in whatever we feel insecure about ourselves michael did too..i mean he touched everyone's lives but he meant a lot to ppl for different reasons not just music. i mean how many ppl did we hear about that said they too suffered from vitiligo and the only person they knew who had it was michael and they found strength in that knowing he did what he did despite the disease. im not saying im happy he has vitiligo or anything and i dont wish it on anyone but i kinda feel he was meant to have it. he's always talking about being colorblind and we should all accept each other and his skin changing showed that no matter what you looked on the outside dont mean you're a different person. but it wasnt just him trying to have white ppl accept blacks cuz if you noticed many african americans abandoned him when his skin changed when just 40 years back they were sayin dont judge a person by color but by their mind and heart... idk i feel mike was meant to have certain things happen to kind of show the world something..

i know it sounds like i'm rambling but his life teaches you to love your children, love one another, not to discriminate based on color, not to allow yourself to be swayed by mainstream media, humble yourself, dont take no for an answer. he just united us all and i love that about him.

dont know how this really fits in this psych thread but felt like sharing

 

[uranusbluedanger1]

its so TRUE!!! lol i'm in the same field and sometimes i'll learn new things and i apply it to my life and michael's.... i sound crazy i know thats why im in psych so i can figure out whats wrong with me

but do you guys ever feel that Michael was the collection of everyone's insecurities..as in whatever we feel insecure about ourselves michael did too..i mean he touched everyone's lives but he meant a lot to ppl for different reasons not just music. i mean how many ppl did we hear about that said they too suffered from vitiligo and the only person they knew who had it was michael and they found strength in that knowing he did what he did despite the disease. im not saying im happy he has vitiligo or anything and i dont wish it on anyone but i kinda feel he was meant to have it. he's always talking about being colorblind and we should all accept each other and his skin changing showed that no matter what you looked on the outside dont mean you're a different person. but it wasnt just him trying to have white ppl accept blacks cuz if you noticed many african americans abandoned him when his skin changed when just 40 years back they were sayin dont judge a person by color but by their mind and heart... idk i feel mike was meant to have certain things happen to kind of show the world something..

i know it sounds like i'm rambling but his life teaches you to love your children, love one another, not to discriminate based on color, not to allow yourself to be swayed by mainstream media, humble yourself, dont take no for an answer. he just united us all and i love that about him.

dont know how this really fits in this psych thread but felt like sharing

I'm a deep believer in things happen for a reason, but I have always attributed this to things happen to a person for a reason that relates to them, not to others. I don't know. To think that things happen to others and by default affect you and others doesn't sit well with me. Takes away from my own responsibility over my own fate... I'm a bit of an existentialist. I'm gonna have to go with the whole notion of self-responsibility, which would discard this for me. But do I think you have a valid point? Absolutely. I see what you're saying. I just can't fully agree with it.

I think it might sort of relate to psychology after all, though, if not, a lot... people could see a part of themselves in Michael, relate to him because of his problems. Our problems are what make us human, really, because pefection isn't quite acknowledged as human throughout history (Plato and his unattainable forms, Socrates speaking of the imperfection of Love and Beauty, Darwin on the imperfection of nature....), but our mistakes or things we don't always like about ourselves? they stick out like a sore thumb. we notice such things about ourselves, and are quick to notice it in others as well (reflection of ourselves in others. Freud and Jung explained that when you inherently immediately disliked someone, you saw a part of your Shadow or your Id, your repressed side in that person... and when you liked someone immediately, you saw a piece of yourself in them... vulnerability, whatever it was.) So that people would notice in Michael something about themselves.

As far as vitiligo--the whole idea of him wanting people to be colorblind and his own condition... it's a reinforcer. I'm a public speaker. Debate, those things, it's what I do so I think of it this way... not so much as it was 'meant to happen' for the betterment of society, but that he was wise about how to use it... It's like this: everyone has a story to tell. You just need to know how to tell it so tha it can serve a greater purpose. My story? I had no money for college and managed to get a full-ride and had schools fighting for me. How this message helps others? I'm doing a program that focuses on the law education of children in disadvantaged areas. I'm hispanic, and, I have a story. These kids? They're relating to me in ways I could never explain. Did things happen in my life so that I could help others? Gosh, I wish I could say I'm that special, but really, it's all about how you turn bad situations into good. I think of it as following the good ol' idea of there is beauty in darkness as there is darkness in beauty. Anyway, my point is that his issues made people be able to relate to him. It's like when a brilliant speaker uses pathos. You strike a chord in others. Logos is easy--you say facts, you just shout them out, but it does not earn you trust. Ethos? Ethics... how does your listener know you are telling the truth, why should they listen to you? It ties into pathos... how do you strike them emotionally, make them feel what you feel... Michael was very good in sharing his emotions, through music, through dance, through poetry. Vitiligo was perhaps a subsconscious proof of pathos. People could see it. A reason to be colorblind. He says to love children to love others... his actions provided the pathos, logos, and ethos to promote it in others.

I don't know. It's the way I see it. But I'm really weird sometimes so you're welcome to bypass my comments.

 

[craze4mj]

no i totally agree with you...what you said is what i tried to say... im just really bad at putting my thoughts together when i write. its just the fact that he had all these things happen to him yet he kept going is what i admire him for..sure there were times where he was super insecure but the fact that he did what he did just made me go wow... public thinks he's pathetic and all but i truly do see a hero and strength in him even with his mistakes and flaws i mean he's only human...i just love him:cloud9

 

[IrishFaery]

I have to say people love Michael. So much so that they just wanted him to be and think like everyone else as perhaps that would have been the key to his happiness and would have made him less lonely. His world view may come across as extreme to some, but it was out of nurturing and love and included everyone on the planet--kids, adults, and animals alike--even those many would consider evil!

A KKK member's world view would wipe out more than ninety percent of the world's human population. We will ignore these Klan members who spout fear disguised as hate. But someone like Michael who wants to live in a world where people are more child-like (which here means unprejudiced, affectionate, faith-filled, helpers, believers and big dreamers) people want to lock up, counsel, or "fix."

What is so wrong with making all things children and childhood your focus and passion? Children and childhood are forever. No one comes to this earth fully grown. If children go away, it means humans are becoming extinct. Now that may not have necessarily been what he meant (we don't know because--like Bashir--Boteach gives us only what he wants us to see) but that is the truth of the matter. And quite frankly I'm with Michael, if all the children leave, I'm going too. I don't want to stick around and watch the planet die. And with the adults being left, it'll only take a couple of days the way adults kill each other. All it would take is one grown a$$ maniac to push the button.

Woody Allen has been seeing the same psychiatrist for over 40 years. Whatever feelings he had that led him to see the psychiatrist still didn't solve his need to fornicate with women young enough to be his granddaughters. This is a lifestyle choice a great many people find reprehensible. This neither stops nor concerns him. And it shouldn't. His films carry the same theme--nebbish, semi-atheist, misanthropic, cynic has passionate extra-marital affairs with young--sometimes not so bright--women. But you know what, that's Woody Allen's world and we let him have it. He pays his taxes, respects his neighbors, and takes care of his wife and (2) of his children. Live and let live.

This is the biggest problem with the Rabbi releasing these conversations. On the one hand, it is refreshing to hear Michael's thoughts, share in his pain, see his surprisingly optimistic world view (given the hell he's been through) and express his triumph. On the other as I said earlier the Rabbi has picked apart everything he wanted to pick apart to prove his specific points. Much of what he released could be taken out of context because the Rabbi has an adgenda: to show the world that Michael was a helpless, desperate, lonely, stunted, pathetic soul who may have done horrible things based on these few bits of thirty hours of conversation he had with him.

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

We are hearing the same things over and over out of Michael because the Rabbi is asking him the same questions everyone and their Momma has asked him before. This is a clear indication that they didn't believe what he said the first time so they attack him again in the hopes of getting a different answer. Michael was who he was. They couldn't understand it, didn't try to understand it, was too lazy to understand it, wouldn't accept it, and therefore over-analyzed it.

Michael knew who he was and he knew when he was having issues and concerns because he set out to solve them.

He knew his father wasn't going to change his stripes so he took the steps to remedy that relationship. He knew his painful shyness was a problem when he was hanging about with mannequins and walking the streets at night looking for friends. He knew he was socially awkward and did the best he could to remedy that. He managed to befriend many good, decent people, get married twice, and father three children in those fifty years. It's just that the leeches have the biggest mouths.

This is where I have issue with someone else's world view and when they need to seek help. It's absolutely fine for you to want to live in a world with nothing but green-eyed redheads. But when you start taking the lives of those of us who don't fit that bill, you have officially lost touch with reality and need to seek help.

Someone like Michael--well--at least he was able to open up to someone and not kept it all bottled in. That's what most people do because they don't want to be seen as vunerable or weak.

 

[HeavenSent]

Live and let live.

Those four words, I tell ya....So simple a concept yet so difficult. No one with an agenda is EVER gonna do that.

Excellent post, IrishFaery :8-26-03respect: